Aggressive and Strong

[Bao]

I believe that J.W. has said something similar to this. . . .

[The Possible Human]

Brock may not have much MMA experience, but he was heavyweight NCAA wrestling champion in 2000 and was 2nd place in 1999. You can't do that on strength alone because everybody there is super strong. He obviously has quite a bit of technique and years of wrestling experience. A guy like that will be able to run through most people who aren't training for combat as a full time job and will even make some guys that are training like that look like chumps.

As for just dealing with a big, powerful, untrained guy, I think that is where some true scenario training comes into play. I can't even count the amount of times where an experienced guy in boxing gym who could pick apart some other experienced guys would fall victim to some big shots by a relative newby. What that comes down to is when you are used to only sparring experienced guys or just guys in your particular style, then it becomes easy to be caught by somebody doing something different... moving different... employing different strategies... using different timing... It is easier to combat the latter problem by going to open tournaments, open sparring sessions, and just sparring friends from different styles. The former is a bit harder, and I think that is where scenario training comes in. Throw boxing gloves and some good headgear on somebody, and just have them attack you like you'd expect to be attacked in the street. Just have them be extremely aggressive throwing wild haymakers and trying to tackle and smash you. Be prepared to eat some big shots and kill your ego at first.

[Bodywork]

Interesting
Since you wanted to discuss the topic within the context of the UFC perhaps going back and revisiting all the earlier fights with 270 Lb Dan Severn getting choked out by 178 lb Royce will answer more questions. Then you also have the Sumo guy knocked by a 200 lb guy and on and on. Ans Kimo getting trashed several times by smaller guys, till he slimmed way down. You can also examine Judo's little Mifune tossing huge Americans with ease in open competition. It's just a view, but if someone wants to follow the quoted J.W.'s advice of trying to "win by brute force," I'd say you're a damn fool, but hey...opinins right?

Needing to ask the questions about size -with machine guns as a reply- is fine. It also openly states sort of where people are at in their understanding. I continue to be amazed at the "internal" martial art discussion forums I see more MMA /UFC mindset and limitations than ICMA gold.

[chud]

Get the hell out of the way, obviously.

Yep, if the opponent's edge is size then you have to have an edge of your own, such as speed/evasiveness. Perhaps this is where some bagua stepping comes in handy.

[ashe]

P.S. Most recreational martial artists are fooling themselves about their ability to fight a larger and aggressive opponent -- especially one with lots of experience; but self-defense is somewhat different from two trained athletes fighting for prestige and/or money but not as different as some experts would like the masses to believe. If your training never includes getting hit and hitting as well as spontaneous use of combinations against unrehearsed attacks, you're not likely to develop fighting skills that might work on the street. Solo and two-person forms as well as push-hands are only part of the training package -- not the Holy Grail.

QFT.

and very BTDT.

EDIT- anyone who's making claims of brock having less skill needs to check themselves. you must have a narrow sense of what skill encompasses if you think brock had "less skill". from what i saw, he had perfect timing for many of his takedowns. your control over time/space is an important part of skill that's critical to actual use of your art. i would however say that it's fair to say that he needs to work on his submissions...

[dragontigerpalm]

IMO fighting an oversized opponent outside of a sports context should not be significantly different than fighting an opponent of equal size, strength and skill. Often very large guys have even greater vulnerabilities than smaller ones particularly ankles and knees.

[ashe]

not to mention his first strike was perfectly timed and placed. he knocked herring halfway across the cage.

[strawdog]

I think my head would've exploded like a watermelon if I got punched by Lesnar like that.

[DeusTrismegistus]

anyone who's making claims of brock having less skill needs to check themselves. you must have a narrow sense of what skill encompasses if you think brock had "less skill". from what i saw, he had perfect timing for many of his takedowns. your control over time/space is an important part of skill that's critical to actual use of your art. i would however say that it's fair to say that he needs to work on his submissions...

not to mention his first strike was perfectly timed and placed. he knocked herring halfway across the cage.

As I tried to clarify earlier, Brock did not look to be as technical as Heath. Moreso standing than on the ground. His ground positioning was really good but it looked to me like he was using his strength to put Heath into positions and keep him in positions that Heath would have escaped from someone who wasn't as strong. I don't know if he just didn't want to submit him or didn't know how because he had ample opportunity.

His first strike was very well placed and had good timing. He is surprisingly quick for a man his size as well. I don't think any boxing, muay thai, karate, or kung fu would call his striking textbook though. Yes it was effective, but could it be better? Absolutely. I think Heath was simply better at the textbook part, and that is all I meant by Brock was less skilled. That is the way it appeared to me though.

My point wasn't to argue about how good a fighter Brock is. The level of aggressiveness he brought to play was very high, and he had a lot of strength and weight and used it to his advantage. When two textbook fighters go at it seldom do you see that kind of aggressiveness or use of weight and strength. So what is there within our martial arts (internal in particular) that teach us how to deal with that kind of raw aggression and power? This is what a lot of people SAY they can do. Use 4 ounces to defeat a thousand pounds right? Well Brock probably had 1000lbs of force behind him when he ran at heath and jumped into him. How do you deal with that?

[Johnny Drama]

Dealing with aggressive and strong guys isn't easy, but it isn't the end of the world either. I train with several 220-300 lbs guys. Their skill level ranges from white belt to brown. Its not necessarily an easier time with the lower ranks either. Theres a 2 month white belt whos only about 220 where I train. But, he has the most freakish strength I have ever encountered. He is as strong if not stronger then a big Russian Judoka I always considered the strongest guy I've ever met. The first time I wrestled this white belt I expected an easy match. I was shocked to find myself pinned under him, unable to move. I could not do shit. I panicked, my attempts to get out failed and I found myself tapping to a north south choke.

When I lost like this it was ego shattering, but really good. It forced me to rethink my whole strategy. I just don't want someone that big ontop of me. So, I'd do whatever I could to get the takedown. If I couldn't, I'd go to guards where I knew I had a good chance to sweep/take the back or stand up again. This strategy was much, much better. It allowed me to put the guy on his back, take the steam out of him, and finish. Even if I got swept, I still had showed him and myself that I didn't just have to play bottom and was dangerous from all positions.

So, my advice is to train with big strong guys often. You find your own strategy that way. Its overwhelming at first and pretty shocking how weak you are in comparison, even if you consider yourself a powerhouse. You adapt though.

[strawdog]

Since you have previously said in another topic that "you break people", would you care to be the first?

He'll just talk about it, because at his level he has NOTHING to prove. That's how it is when you reach the level of the gods.

If I were as gifted and talented 'd be making some MMA money and busting heads on the likes of Fedor and Silva.

[Elliot]

ParryPerson wrote:

Thus the problem of "MMA" matches. I know it's been done to death, but most martial artists learn to fight in self defense or life and death situations with no rules, and MMA has many many rules, all of which are designed to make for a longer fight, which ='s more sponsers and more viewers

If any of us posting here were actually fighting Brock Lesnar under "MMA rules," it would be a life or death situation.

[Ian]

No it wouldn't. It'd just be unpleasant.

[Darthwing Teorist]

No it wouldn't. It'd just be unpleasant.

MMA is actually a safe venue to test one's skills.

[Dmitri]

Well, "safe" is a relative term... "Unpleasant" may mean a broken limb, a dislocated major joint, or worse -- a few of those knees to the spine or some of the "accidental" slips into illegal shots like back of the head or neck, and it might cause some SERIOUS freakin' problems when you're old(er).

I feel quite safe enough NOT going there, thankyouverymuch.