Zhuan in Baguazhang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:04 am

Please don't derail this thread.

If you guys want to talk about DHC's balls, or lack of, then do it on your own thread!


.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5006
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby onyomi on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:07 am

This talk of similar-sounding characters also made me think of the character 陣 (zhen), which is admittedly a little further off from 掌, at least in Mandarin, but which presents some other interesting possibilities. According to my dictionary, 八卦陣 (Bagua-zhen) is the name of a particular battle formation, and 八陣圖 is a set of military strategies attributed to Zhuge Liang. I wonder if some of these valences are not also in play with Bagua-zhang?
onyomi
Mingjing
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 7:21 am

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:57 pm

Edit

Onyomi, the word Bagua is used for many, many different things, so I highly doubt there is any connection, especially as most any Baguazhang practitioner would know it's a solo style, not fit for battle formations.

Franklin,

I have no idea about the Chinese military stuff and wouldn't even know where to start. I would suggest that you start a new topic and put something in the title that might attract the forum members, such a Josh, who have extensive knowledge of Chinese military organizations and history.


Cheers
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5006
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby Franklin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:39 pm

just some random musings

but what about the development of the more ancient arts that bagua was based on
would they not be arts that would be used to protect villages or towns from bandits / marauders
and also ancient battle field arts

those would be much more effective if they included group fighting tactics or formations

i would imagine that guarding a caravan would need similar skills
sort of like in the old west - circle the wagons type stuff- working as a group

also whats up with the old time photography
when i look at the picture of the older masters
what was the camera technology like back then
did they have to hold the pose for a period of time while the film was imprinted?



franklin
Franklin
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:56 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:01 pm

To clarify some things.

The proper meaning of the word 掌 Zhǎng - should be 'to wield'. This could be an actual weapon but the core of Baguazhang is about the empty-hand material.

Above I mentioned that one needs to first learn 1 掌 Zhǎng, of which there are 8 and in order of the Post-Heaven Bagua:

连环掌 Lián Huán Zhǎng - Interlocking Palm - Qian Trigram
顺势掌 Shùn Shì Zhǎng - Moving with the Force Palm - Kan Trigram
背身掌 Bèi Shēn Zhǎng - Behind the Back Palm - Gen Trigram
平托掌 Píng Tuō Zhǎng - Supporting and Lifting Palm - Zhen Trigram
风轮掌 Fēng Lún Zhǎng - Wind Wheel Palm - Xun Trigram
卧势掌 Wò Shì Zhǎng - Crouching under the Force Palm - Li Trigram
返身掌 Fǎn Shēn Zhǎng - Returning Body Palm - Kun Trigram
抱势掌 Bào Shì Zhǎng - Enfolding the Force Palm - Dui Trigram


The one 掌 Zhǎng that almost all the Baguazhang practitioners in the world are learning is the 平托掌 Píng Tuō Zhǎng - Supporting and Lifting Zhang of the 震卦龍形 Zhen Guà or Thunder Trigram Dragon System.

This 掌 Zhǎng has it's own 'shenfa' (body-method) based upon the shape of the trigram: Where the solid line on the bottom represents the shoulders needing to be strong and that the legs are strong and the root of power comes from the legs.

It has it's own methods that it uses while fighting: 推 1- Tuī (Pushing) 托 2- Tuō (Lifting) 帶 3- Dài (Carrying) 領 4- lǐng (Leading) 搬 5- bān (Moving) 扣 6- kòu (Capturing)劈 7- pī (Chopping) and 進 8- jìn (Entering).

The idea behind the word 掌 Zhǎng - 'to wield' is that we want to train our body to be like a weapon, so we can wield our own body as our weapon.
This is done through training and practice. Practice which needs to be done in a proper ratio of importance.

1- 站:就是指站桩,正所谓桩功出内功,长内劲最好的办法之一就是站桩;

2- 转:也就是八卦掌最基础和最高深的功法-转圈,转掌不仅长内功,而且可以使步伐灵活;

3- 打:指的是系统的散手训练,把单式散手训练通过不同的形式进行训练。

4- 换:就是指换势,换掌,方法很多,套路也很多。

1 - 站桩 Zhan Zhuang - Standing Practice - is standing in place holding a posture, first focusing on standing on both feet developing a 'long', connected, continuous force throughout the whole body. This strengthens the body, stretching the tendons which in turn exert strain on the bones which then begin to harden and become denser. Standing strengthens the whole body with a noticeable toughening in the bones of the forearms which allows one to strike with and absorb strikes with the forearms. There is a standing posture for each of the 8 掌 Zhǎng/ Trigrams typically called the 8 mother 掌 Zhǎng but as we want to first focus on just 1 then one should only practice the 'Dragon stretches it's claws' posture or if there is extra time then there is also a standing posture for each of it's 8 methods - pushing, lifting, moving, etc. that can be practiced in order to further develop the strength needed for a specific method. Standing in Baguazhang should be done for 5 minutes on one side, then switch to the other side. A minimum of 20 minutes per day to see any development but more is better.

2 - 转圈 Zhuan Quan - Circle Walking - also considered a 行桩 Xing Zhuang - Moving Standing Practice - as one is holding the upper body static and still while walking around the circle. This should be done for a minimum of 40 minutes with one posture and is usually the same primary posture of the 掌 Zhǎng, which in the case of the Dragon is the same 'Dragon stretches it's claws' posture as the standing practice. This further develops the strength of the body, hardening of the bones, lengthening of tendons, and has an even greater effect on the internal 'Nei gong' side of the practice as more qi and blood are moving. In Baguazhang we say that if one only does the Standing practices then their body will become to stiff over time so it must be balanced out with 'moving standing'.

3 - 打 'Da' - Striking - we further develop the body through 'single -striking drills' done along straight lines, standing in place, while turning around the circle, or back stepping drills, and various other types of drills and combination type strikes. This is also a further key part for balancing out the 'Standing' and 'Moving Standing' (circle turning) practices.

4 - 换 'Huan' - Changing - None of the above would be complete without practicing and learning how to 'change' (bianhua) which is done with the various short forms of Baguazhang. In the single- striking drills there is no 'change' because the second strike is starting at the same ending place of the first strike and so on. In order to develop 'change' there has to the practice of variations where different strikes are started from the ending place of a different previous strike. The more varied chains or linked techniques one practices the better their development of 'changing skill'.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5006
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby onyomi on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:13 pm

Well, I didn't mean to imply that we would somehow adapt the strategy of Bagua-zhang the martial art to use in moving armies, but rather the other way around--i.e. maybe Bagua's name comes in part from a long history of using the term "Bagua" to mean a kind of 360 degree battle strategy, so when shrinking that down to the individual level it would be appropriate to give it a similar name. My shifu also refers to something he calls 戰法 (zhanfa--"war methods") in Praying Mantis. It doesn't mean adapting Praying Mantis for use by an army, but rather using principles of topography, environment and the like which apply on a big scale on a smaller scale--how to strategically drive the opponent into a corner or what have you. Given Bagua's reputation at being good for use against multiple opponents and given that fighting multiple opponents would require a larger sense of strategy and wider awareness, it might make sense to think of that almost as belonging to the realm of military tactics. Of course, the Chinese do use the word "Bagua" to refer to many things, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that DHC or whoever first started calling the art "Bagua-zhang" had this history of "Bagua" as a type of military strategy in the back of his mind.
Last edited by onyomi on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
onyomi
Mingjing
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 7:21 am

Re: Zhuan in Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:46 pm

I dunno, I'm not quite convinced yet - although "wield" is one possible meaning for "zhang," the primary meaning is still "palm"... I'd say more evidence would be needed before disparaging the "turning palms" or "eight trigram palms" translation.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4078
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cloudz, wayne hansen and 4 guests