bridging drills

[gasmaster]

In exploring usage of bridging against a western jab, I found a strong forward intention to be the best way to maintain the bridge in order to keep the sticky element in place and close the gap. In the art I study, amoung other things, we have a set of eight piercing palms drills to train this.

What kind of drills does your art have to practice the bridge, and how have you been able to translate that to unrehearsed usage?

Do you prefer a soft bridge which you can redirect when up against pressure, or one that cuts strait through the target/ collapsing their structure? different goals for different times?

[David Boxen]

I've found that if I want to gain an advantage against a jab that I have to go kamikaze style, straight in "hard". Not thinking about redirecting but cutting straight through.

[Wuyizidi]

The advantages of the jab are that it's very quick, changeable, relatively long range, and very hard for the opponent to tell whether an attack is real or fake. The disadvantage is that power-wise it's relatively light. For internal martial arts, the main advantage of internal skills (we also use external skills, but as finishing moves) is that we can use them to control the opponent. The disadvantage is that those has to be used at very close range - everything starts with making contact first. So you're raising one of the key questions for internal martial art fighting: how do we close that distance?

Here we have a two part problem:

1. dealing with a longer weapon: in theory, the only way to survive against a longer weapon is to get inside, past its minimum effective range. So we have stay just outside its maximum effective range until we spot an opportunity, then we come in fast, inside of its minimum effective range.
2. dealing with trickery: against someone using a lot of tricky/fake skills, you do something solid, real, forcing him to respond with the same. To paraphrase Sunzi, present the enemy with a target so inviting that he has to strike with real commitment. And when they do that, it's much simpler (not necessarily easier) to deal with.

There are two types of skills we need to be good at to make this work:
Footwork: amongst many Taiji practitioners today, one common problem is that their steps are too big. This is the result of doing mostly stationary push hand and fixed routine moving push hands where only one or two pre-designed steps are required. If we are unable to stick to our partner in random moving push hand practice, then our footwork is not good enough for real fighting.

This is one reason sticking staff is emphasized so much in traditional practice. Footwork is even more import in weapons fighting, where everything is faster. There being out of position even a little bit means not being able to withdraw the weapon back in time to deal with the next attack. And the type that is needed there are mostly small, quick and therefore more stable and agile footwork. So sticking staff (spear basics) drills offers us the most challenging and realistic footwork training.

Hand skill: In push hands we normally start the practice with two people touching each other's hands already. So how to achieve that touch in the first place? In Taiji Quan, there is actually a set of skills called bridge hands in its sparring practice. It's one of the last skills to learn for people who are good enough to reach that stage in training. It's similar to the ones used in Bagua - how to make contact with the opponent's arms using the arm on the same side, opposite side; from inside of his arm, from outside; one hand, both hands; what to do immediately after making contact to get even closer, control his center, etc.

There are of course a lot of details: even when it's a hard, real attack, the hands is still very fast and changeable, so don't try to catch the wrist directly, watch the elbow, try to make contact with the elbow or the area below (toward the forearm), etc.

Wuyizidi

[XiaoXiong]

Reading your post about bridging, Wuyizidi, it seems like your point of view is based mostly on a taiji perspective. I think that in bagua and xingyi there are perhaps different answers as well.

As far using xingyi against a jab I like a soft response that helps me close the distance ala monkey a lot. I tend to use a lot of umbrella type things and elbows/forearms to stick to jabs from monkey. That way the person doesn't necessarily fell anything coming if they are just testing with the jab. Also just pi or beng right through it, cutting the angle with small angles is usually one of my strong suits off of a jab.

As far as bagua goes, whipping or slapping the jab aside with seven star step sets up a nice angle. There's chopping wich can be a deceptive way to keep the jab from pulling back with good balance. One thing Luo Laoshi has said about bridging which really helped me is "I do half you do half." This means, among other things, you intercept by catching the timing and using simultaneous attack/defense.

The key from my pov to defending the jab, is to really train distance and timing. Be first and take an oblique angle when you do your half.
J

[Ben]

I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately.

Can you give me a link to some more information about the bridging hands practice?

[XiaoXiong]

To be honest this kind of stuff tends to be held close to the chest.
J

[kenneth fish]

One of the better uses for drilling is slipping and sticking to the jab - combined with footwork you can ride the jab back to the opponent with an increase in speed (from the opponents retraction). Also, as noted above, monkey is a good way to make the bridge (but you have to follow and strike in any case, or its just a matter of time before you get hit).

[Wuyizidi]

I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately.

Can you give me a link to some more information about the bridging hands practice?

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe both the footworks and bridge hand skills are covered in it. http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Techniques ... 1583941452

Basically if you have trained using a jian or dao against spear, the type of entry skill you use: make contact with his weapon from opposite direction, don't try to smash it aside (because you can't), stick to it, and use footwork to get in, maybe even grab it with the free hand... it's basically like that, except it's empty hand.

Wuyizidi

[Wuyizidi]

Reading your post about bridging, Wuyizidi, it seems like your point of view is based mostly on a taiji perspective. I think that in bagua and xingyi there are perhaps different answers as well.
...
J

Yes, that's the Taiji perspective. I don't know that much about Xingyi or Bagua, so it's really interesting to hear the different approaches.

Thanks.

wuyizidi.

[Franklin]

In exploring usage of bridging against a western jab, I found a strong forward intention to be the best way to maintain the bridge in order to keep the sticky element in place and close the gap. In the art I study, amoung other things, we have a set of eight piercing palms drills to train this.

What kind of drills does your art have to practice the bridge, and how have you been able to translate that to unrehearsed usage?

Do you prefer a soft bridge which you can redirect when up against pressure, or one that cuts strait through the target/ collapsing their structure? different goals for different times?

just some thoughts-
i would agree that a strong forward pressure is good against a jab-if you are going to enter instead of stay outside
don't concentrate on the fist- but control the root
make your arm and intention like a wedge that drives the opponents limbs out of your way and attacks the opponents center

even if you are seeking to drive through you still might change and draw back trying to pull them (seen in southern shaolin)

3 times to strike
-before the opponent starts the strike
-same time as the opponent's strike
-follow the opponent's withdraw after the strike

i think you also have to think about what you are training for
handling a jab will be different if you are training for the ring as opposed to training to enter and finish

Franklin

[GrahamB]

Here's a Dog Brothers example of bridging from Kali that has direct relation to XingYi's Tzuann Chuan to my eyes:

[D_Glenn]

I've heard that chuan zhang looks like it's hard but should actually be soft as rope. Also from all the lines of bagua the bridging hand should be like a cows tongue, as in the way it feels if you've been to a butchers shop, it is flexible but hard as a rock, not referring to the shape of the palm. If you control the hand by controlling at the wrist or forearm above the elbow it is 'lan' 'stopping' and your supporting hand 'fu shou' is protecting you from their possible elbow. If you meet past the elbow you control their arm/fist by controlling them at the shoulder its called 'jie' 'cut-off'. In the 'bei shen zhang' meeting strategy you can 'jie' by ducking low and hitting the top of the attacking arms hip which completely cuts off the root of their strike. If you go straight in like you said towards the face and they raise their arm then it becomes the 'ping tuo zhang' 'holding up and lifting' strategy. If they pull back then I think it's called 搶 qiang- take it by force, steal it.


.

[kreese]

Interesting, D_Glenn. The soft hand is ready to become hard.

Is 'jie' intercepting, as in Jeet Kun Do?

[C.J.Wang]

My grandteacher once commented that Bagua fighting is all about "qiang yi" (to rob and take the lead intent). To take the lead intent means your intent is always a little ahead of that of the opponent's, which forces him to follow your gameplan and the format that you are familiar with -- as in Wing Chun chisao when the student is constantly controlled and one step behind the teacher.

[Ben]

I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately.

Can you give me a link to some more information about the bridging hands practice?

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe both the footworks and bridge hand skills are covered in it. http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Techniques ... 1583941452

Basically if you have trained using a jian or dao against spear, the type of entry skill you use: make contact with his weapon from opposite direction, don't try to smash it aside (because you can't), stick to it, and use footwork to get in, maybe even grab it with the free hand... it's basically like that, except it's empty hand.

Wuyizidi

Thanks, I'll chck it out.