Shen Fa?

[Franklin]

So, if the meaning of "Shen Fa" is first translated to the English speaking student as "body use," and then explained in detail so the student understands what it means, it is then clearer to keep using the Chinese term?

Spooky logic.

It does sound cool though.

it should be explained that shen fa refers to a way in which the body is connected and used
but that actual connection and internal use of the body can never be fully explained
exercises, drills, explanations, and feeling the teacher can really only point the way
the student must really start to connect the dots for him or herself

hence I personally feel that the chinese term actually might be better to describe it in this instance as it is a little more vague and hard to pin down- as most people have the opinion that if they intellectually understand or can describe something then they know it

something like shen fa takes years and years to develop- especially if you are practicing an "internal" style
and through the years as your connection develops your understanding will deepen

but if you want to use the term body use instead of shen fa- or any other translation that you feel is adequate- that is perfectly fine by me

each teacher should be free to pass there art on as they feel fit-


franklin

[C.J.Wang]

I think it'd be better to look at the term in context rather than trying to give general definitions. Because depending on how, where, and when it is used, shen fa can have slightly different meanings.

[SPJ]

yes. method, requirement, laws and rules are all correct depending on the topics discussed.

as pointed out every style does have specific requirements for the body to move or to be used.

in tong bei, there are several specific exercises to develop the body useage.

sometimes, they are also called body frame/structure or jia zhi.

in ba gua, your standing in basic postures and walking in a fixed postures may all be considered practices to develop your frame or body usage.

etc etc.

[klonk]

In discussion in the West, the term is almost entirely used in a comparative sense, that is, a normative one.

Normative, I emphasize that. But I am somewhat handicapped in this discussion by not being Chinese speaking. You want a good laugh? Ask me to say something in Chinese.

Here is somewhat how I have heard the term:

"Stop using your karate shen fa, that is not the way we move in taiji!"

Body sense, awareness, style, form, technique. What is specific and necessary to an art.

What, in the West, defines an avalemment turn on skis from an old style Christie, or the swing through from the sustained lead shooting technique, or the trailing throttle oversteer from the stomp and twist driving technique, I would sort it all under the same heading of technique or method. Requirements, laws, rules, also good equivalents (Thanks SPJ!).

The right way and the wrong way. It differs for this or that art. If a dancing teacher said, "Your ballet looks like salsa" you might get the drift that there is something specific to impart here, and would pay attention, by the fact of the contrast.

Are you profiting by this discussion, Elliot, or are you merely a boy stirring a puddle with a stick, to see what might crawl out of it?

[kreese]

Why not use a few Chinese terms? Seems presumptuous to think they can easily be replaced, 1-for-1 with an English term. Like it or not, you are learning Chinese culture when you learn Chinese martial arts.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Why not use a few Chinese terms? Seems presumptuous to think they can easily be replaced, 1-for-1 with an English term. Like it or not, you are learning Chinese culture when you learn Chinese martial arts.

The only chinese term I have ever heard my teacher use is qi, and only when asked about it except for rare occassions. Chinese terms or even movement names arent really necessary when you are learning to do, they really only help when it comes to speaking to other people about what you do. Once I heard the term shen fa I understood what it meant from context and experience. I knew the concept just didn't know the name. I would rather know something from experience and not know its name and be able to express it physically than know its name and all the tehory but not know how to do it.

[Elliot]

Are you profiting by this discussion, Elliot, or are you merely a boy stirring a puddle with a stick, to see what might crawl out of it?

You had me at "body use."

[kreese]

Why not use a few Chinese terms? Seems presumptuous to think they can easily be replaced, 1-for-1 with an English term. Like it or not, you are learning Chinese culture when you learn Chinese martial arts.

The only Chinese term I have ever heard my teacher use is qi, and only when asked about it except for rare occasions. Chinese terms or even movement names aren't really necessary when you are learning to do, they really only help when it comes to speaking to other people about what you do. Once I heard the term shen fa I understood what it meant from context and experience. I knew the concept just didn't know the name. I would rather know something from experience and not know its name and be able to express it physically than know its name and all the theory but not know how to do it.

They totally help. My teacher just has to speak a few words to convey loads of meaning when he is leading us through various drills. If anything, the conciseness of the Chinese terms helps a lot. Your teacher is Chinese, I gather, but he is teaching Westerners, I gather? The translation of Chinese terms is the cause of many, many misunderstandings in practice. I'm not saying that it can't be done, or that it is always clearer, or always necessary, but to dismiss all of them is based on unclear motivations to me. Perhaps Shen Fa is a bad example, but little directives for what to do to achieve Shen Fa are so neatly packaged in a couple of words that it really makes it easier to teach, learn, and remember. Ok, so we can rename a lot of these but what's the point? I think it has more to do with people's squeamishness when it comes to foreign words.

Or...we can just rename everything. Who needs Taijiquan? People seem to looooooooove that word. Let's call it Grand Ultimate Fist. Or Great Extremes Boxing. Or Great Poles Boxing. What? That's stupid, you say? Damn straight it is. We won't even get into Baguazhang...



Gosh, why don't they lose all those stupid Portugese names from Capoeira? Why don't they just rename Taijiquan, Xingiyiquan, Baguazhang, etc? Really now, this is 2008 and everyone should just use English by now.

[Elliot]

I've heard people refer to Chinese styles in English as "Preying Mantis," "Drunk Boxing," and "Tiger Claw." These seem pretty clear.

Is it only stupid to use English names for Chinese styles when they are internal styles?

Sincere question: Do the Chinese translate English sports or activity related terms into Chinese, for instance "baseball" or "boxing?" And for the Chinese speakers here, if they do translate names of sports and activities (like martial arts) are they clear enough in Chinese that Chinese speakers don't necessarily need to learn and have explained the English terms?

[Josealb]

Sincere question: Do the Chinese translate English sports or activity related terms into Chinese, for instance "baseball" or "boxing?" And for the Chinese speakers here, if they do translate names of sports and activities (like martial arts) are they clear enough in Chinese that Chinese speakers don't necessarily need to learn and have explained the English terms?

Do you actually know anything about chinese culture or their language? or you just like to troll?

Its not sincere when you ask stuff you're not really interested in.

[TaoJoannes]

I've heard people refer to Chinese styles in English as "Preying Mantis," "Drunk Boxing," and "Tiger Claw." These seem pretty clear.

Is it only stupid to use English names for Chinese styles when they are internal styles?

Sincere question: Do the Chinese translate English sports or activity related terms into Chinese, for instance "baseball" or "boxing?" And for the Chinese speakers here, if they do translate names of sports and activities (like martial arts) are they clear enough in Chinese that Chinese speakers don't necessarily need to learn and have explained the English terms?

Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are better than "Great Polarity Boxing" "Form and Mind Fist" and "Eight Diagram Palm" because they can be translated in those and other ways, and they sound less pompous in the chinese.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Why not use a few Chinese terms? Seems presumptuous to think they can easily be replaced, 1-for-1 with an English term. Like it or not, you are learning Chinese culture when you learn Chinese martial arts.

The only Chinese term I have ever heard my teacher use is qi, and only when asked about it except for rare occasions. Chinese terms or even movement names aren't really necessary when you are learning to do, they really only help when it comes to speaking to other people about what you do. Once I heard the term shen fa I understood what it meant from context and experience. I knew the concept just didn't know the name. I would rather know something from experience and not know its name and be able to express it physically than know its name and all the theory but not know how to do it.

They totally help. My teacher just has to speak a few words to convey loads of meaning when he is leading us through various drills. If anything, the conciseness of the Chinese terms helps a lot. Your teacher is Chinese, I gather, but he is teaching Westerners, I gather? The translation of Chinese terms is the cause of many, many misunderstandings in practice. I'm not saying that it can't be done, or that it is always clearer, or always necessary, but to dismiss all of them is based on unclear motivations to me. Perhaps Shen Fa is a bad example, but little directives for what to do to achieve Shen Fa are so neatly packaged in a couple of words that it really makes it easier to teach, learn, and remember. Ok, so we can rename a lot of these but what's the point? I think it has more to do with people's squeamishness when it comes to foreign words.

Or...we can just rename everything. Who needs Taijiquan? People seem to looooooooove that word. Let's call it Grand Ultimate Fist. Or Great Extremes Boxing. Or Great Poles Boxing. What? That's stupid, you say? Damn straight it is. We won't even get into Baguazhang...



Gosh, why don't they lose all those stupid Portugese names from Capoeira? Why don't they just rename Taijiquan, Xingiyiquan, Baguazhang, etc? Really now, this is 2008 and everyone should just use English by now.

Actually my teacher is an american teaching americans but he learned from several teachers who only spoke chinese. He teaches mainly through showing, not talking. If he is teaching a throw he throws me, if a strike he hits me with it. There are times he gives verbal advice but it is almost always accompanied by him showing how to do it as well.

If I know what he is showing me or what he is talking about then that is all that really matters. The specific words really don't make a difference. They do make a difference in places like EF where people who can't show what we are talking about have to explain it with words, then the chinese terms and their definitions really help.

Personally I think a lot of americans are too analytical in their approach to learning things like MA. Instead of doing things they think about things. Instead of feeling how to do a technique they think about how to do a technique. Language can get in the way of learning how not to be so analytical. I think this is why kids can pick up on things in many cases a lot faster than adults because they are not as burdened by language. YMMV, IMO, Etc.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Sincere question: Do the Chinese translate English sports or activity related terms into Chinese, for instance "baseball" or "boxing?" And for the Chinese speakers here, if they do translate names of sports and activities (like martial arts) are they clear enough in Chinese that Chinese speakers don't necessarily need to learn and have explained the English terms?

Do you actually know anything about chinese culture or their language? or you just like to troll?

Its not sincere when you ask stuff you're not really interested in.

I am curious to that as well, its something I have never thought of and I know almost nothing about the chinese language or their culture.

[Josealb]

Jesus.

Deus, go read Lian Ke Quan's bio or something.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Jesus.

Deus, go read Lian Ke Quan's bio or something.

Never even heard of that guy. Do you have a name of a book I can look up?