Insightful Interview

[Josealb]

What chris said. Its a study in personal structure, and how to use it and build it to be able to drill inside and thru the other persons structure.

Would it be fare to say the "longer" the force the more push it becomes, and the shorter the force the more it turns into a strike?

[dragontigerpalm]

Hey, everyone can train how they like, doesn't bother me If the method gets results, it gets results, end of story. And there's more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes.

I'm talking about doing stuff on a person, rather than forms against thin air. Personally I don't think people like, say, Mr Strider Clark (in this clip below) would develop the obvious power he's got if he trained by pushing the student in this clip, and likewise I don't think the student would be able to feel and understand the power if he wasn't striking him.



Yep, of course you need to use restraint (and he is using a fair bit of restraint), but the best way to learn that type of power (I believe) is to be on the receiving end. It's uncomfortable and unpleasant, but it's just a bit of pain, and he's not getting seriously injured. That's what I'm talking about. No biggie

best to everyone,
G

I'm not sure that one needs to be on the receiving end of a strike to learn how to strike with power. I do think, though, that striking is learned by striking and is often very different in timing and speed than pushing.

[Bao]

Would it be fare to say the "longer" the force the more push it becomes, and the shorter the force the more it turns into a strike?

No, not necessarily. A long push can be very painful. A senior (the best) of one of my teachers for some years ago had a terrible push. It was like being hit by a car. It threw me away a long distance and I was sore all over the chest era for the whole day. This has to do with speed and suddeness. He don't try to shake peoples root or lightly uproot them first, he just ram people. On the other hand, for instance if someone hold your arms, I think it is better to use short fast force if you want to bounce him away. Quickness of short force can be used to push someone far away.

distance, timing, swiftness, sharpness, follow through etc. can radically change the quality of the force - regardless a push, thrust, pull or strike.

[chrislomas]

IMHO Getting a powerful uproot is useful but still way off tranlating into the unique 'shock' power needed. Simple way to practice this is to get two bound yellow pages (bound with duct tape), get someone of your build or larger to hold it over their right hand chest (for obvious reasons) see if you can drop them (not pushing them back, let the shock go inside). Obviously pads would absord this resulting often in pushing and boxing style blows (ie less relient on shock/vibrations more on pushing through impact). If you can do this everytime then shorten the striking distance, experiment with different angles and hand positions until you can do it from only a couple of inches with all variations and now you have power (albeit not in full fighting context). If you get this good you can always add another directory...

[middleway]

the use of force in the beng 'push' or the beng 'shock power' hit is no different, it is longer or shorter IMO.

If you imagine a wave with 10 peaks ... over its total distance it has a certain amount of power.

Push = wave ending at a distance past the target only 1 peak within the structure .... this is smooth and a push ... not alot of force inside the persons structure.

Shock power = same ten peaks ... now all ten are inside ... this rattles the insides ....

That is a way too complicated way of describing the use of the same force over different distance with different effect and theory like that doesn't help .... only training gives you the ability to hit with control of depth, penetration or projection of strikes.

There are ways to train shock power using pads and striking boards etc (like Chris mentions) also testing short shock power against arms is useful in Pi quan. striking with Pi from a couple of inches with the force entering the bone of the attacker or propelling the arm away.

Xing Yi power testing is a big subject ... i only know a little, but everything is there for a reason, from the apparent 'pushes' to the bruised and battered bodies and arms!

The funny thing is once your structure is good from the 'long force' training you will hit WAY harder than if you simply were to hit alot.... because you are far more intimately aware of the structural weaknesses in your body when pressure is placed on it and how to direct your force along a good line.

Regards

Chris

[Bao]

The funny thing is once your structure is good from the 'long force' training you will hit WAY harder than if you simply were to hit alot.... because you are far more intimately aware of the structural weaknesses in your body when pressure is placed on it and how to direct your force along a good line.

It is very simple really, and not very funny, that practicing taiji pushing will make you strike harder. If you learn to take the force and movement from the ground, you will learn to use the whole body. We say "use the foot to strike with", that is funny, but also very true.

[DeusTrismegistus]

It's good to feel it directly sometimes.The "push" method for safety and training, a few strikes to get the feel, light and heavy. But how much serious training of striking is someone going to let you do on them.

This is what bags are there for fellas. Unless someone wants to freefight/spar then I'm not going to stand there being their personal punchbag!

Your loss, its one of the most beneficial things you can do to learn.

[JessOBrien]

None of my teachers ever sparred with me. Have any of you trained with a guy like Luo De Xiu? Trying to "spar" with him would be an absolute joke. In the few times I've met with him I've been beaten and battered and body slammed to a pulp. Putting on gloves and trying to "spar" with him would be an utter waste of his time. It's completely absurd. His job is to teach martial arts, how to train it and how to fight with it. I have a few precious hours to spend with him, and he gives his all to pass on the best training methods he can. "Fighting" with me would be a farce of the worst order. He would get nothing from it and I would only have a few seconds to learn before getting injured.

For him to spar with me would be him holding back to the point of absurdity, just to make it last a few seconds longer. When you touch with Luo Laoshi you fall down very soon after that, no matter how hard you try to fight back. It's just a fact of life. Why should he pretend to let me win so that we could spar?

You guys are really missing the point I think. I have a great love of freestyle fighting of all different kinds. I like full contact, I like light contact, and I like point sparring (even tho I really suck at it). I've done it hundreds of times with a large variety of styles, both martial art and martial sport. Mostly guys who suck like me, granted, but I've enjoyed every minute of it and learned every minute of it. I think freestyle fighting is the best part of martial arts.

Would I want to "spar" with James Wing Woo age 85? Or would I want to spend those few hours I get with him picking his brain for his extensive knowledge of anatomy, movements and fighting? There's a million meatheads for me to spar with. And I have a ton of friends who I can and do spar with. Would I ask BK Frantzis to spar with me? He went all over Asia in the 1970's fighting the very best he could find, no holds barred. Why would we waste time dancing around like that when he has so much knowledge of the things I love to learn about? When I visit my brothers Muay Thai gym, would I want to spar with Bunkerd Fairtex? Hell no! Again, that's worldclass guy, it would be a total waste of his time to kick my ass.

Would I want to spar with any of the guys in my book, all of whom tower over me in regards to their skill level? Of course I would, but it's a waste of that precious time. My ego would enjoy the chance to try them out, but because I only have a short time to spend with them, I have to get the most, get the best I can from them. The most distilled, in-depth information they can share with me. That often includes getting my ass beaten, but not in a freestyle, full contact sparring method. They demonstrate techniques, strategies, forms, exercises, drills, strikes, throws, kicks, all that stuff. Things I can learn from. Things I take home and train over and over to improve my skill level.

Sparring is done between classmates and school brothers. And in competition if you so desire. In Chinese martial arts if you are sparring with your teacher, get a new teacher. Because if you are lasting longer than 10 seconds with him, you are wasting your time at that school.

with respect, Jess O'Brien

[DeusTrismegistus]

None of my teachers ever sparred with me. Have any of you trained with a guy like Luo De Xiu? Trying to "spar" with him would be an absolute joke. In the few times I've met with him I've been beaten and battered and body slammed to a pulp. Putting on gloves and trying to "spar" with him would be an utter waste of his time. It's completely absurd. His job is to teach martial arts, how to train it and how to fight with it. I have a few precious hours to spend with him, and he gives his all to pass on the best training methods he can. "Fighting" with me would be a farce of the worst order. He would get nothing from it and I would only have a few seconds to learn before getting injured.

For him to spar with me would be him holding back to the point of absurdity, just to make it last a few seconds longer. When you touch with Luo Laoshi you fall down very soon after that, no matter how hard you try to fight back. It's just a fact of life. Why should he pretend to let me win so that we could spar?

You guys are really missing the point I think. I have a great love of freestyle fighting of all different kinds. I like full contact, I like light contact, and I like point sparring (even tho I really suck at it). I've done it hundreds of times with a large variety of styles, both martial art and martial sport. Mostly guys who suck like me, granted, but I've enjoyed every minute of it and learned every minute of it. I think freestyle fighting is the best part of martial arts.

Would I want to "spar" with James Wing Woo age 85? Or would I want to spend those few hours I get with him picking his brain for his extensive knowledge of anatomy, movements and fighting? There's a million meatheads for me to spar with. And I have a ton of friends who I can and do spar with. Would I ask BK Frantzis to spar with me? He went all over Asia in the 1970's fighting the very best he could find, no holds barred. Why would we waste time dancing around like that when he has so much knowledge of the things I love to learn about? When I visit my brothers Muay Thai gym, would I want to spar with Bunkerd Fairtex? Hell no! Again, that's worldclass guy, it would be a total waste of his time to kick my ass.

Would I want to spar with any of the guys in my book, all of whom tower over me in regards to their skill level? Of course I would, but it's a waste of that precious time. My ego would enjoy the chance to try them out, but because I only have a short time to spend with them, I have to get the most, get the best I can from them. The most distilled, in-depth information they can share with me. That often includes getting my ass beaten, but not in a freestyle, full contact sparring method. They demonstrate techniques, strategies, forms, exercises, drills, strikes, throws, kicks, all that stuff. Things I can learn from. Things I take home and train over and over to improve my skill level.

Sparring is done between classmates and school brothers. And in competition if you so desire. In Chinese martial arts if you are sparring with your teacher, get a new teacher. Because if you are lasting longer than 10 seconds with him, you are wasting your time at that school.

with respect, Jess O'Brien

All I can say after reading this, which pretty much confirms what I have been thinking for a long time. Is that most people don't understand sparring. You have been very fortunate Jess to meet train and learn from soem of the greatest martial artists alive.

[JessOBrien]

I have been lucky, but I also spent a lot of time and cash to find them. So I'm not unique, anyone can train with the guys in my book if you go look for them. And I haven't spent much time with any of them, so I'm not a real student, just a visitor.

Anyways, I kinda disagree that most people don't understand sparring. It's pretty easy, determine how hard you wanna go, put on gloves and go for it. But I do maintain that it's not a teacher's place to spar their student, at least in Chinese martial arts. Beat on them, yes. Spar them, no. I'm there to learn from the teacher, not test myself against him. That's a waste of his time and my money!!

-Jess O

[bruce]

i think one of the best lessons i ever had with my tai chi chuan practice is my teacher "sparring" hard and fast and being just overwhelmed and not knowing what to do. that feeling of being totally lost can be a stimulus to gain a greater understanding of actual fighting lessons you are being taught.

training like that all of the time might prove to be a waste of time but being overwhelmed ever now and then i think is good for you.

[JAB]

Thats funny because I refuse to train under someone who does not spar with me! I had great "Chinese masters" up until 6 years ago who never did shit. And in the end they knew little because they never did SHIT!
I meet Tim and Hu Xi Lin, and from the first lesson on they spar with me, and teach me via contact. It is silly to say that you cannot spar with your teacher because he would own you! He should have control and enough skill to lower or raise himself to the students required level.

To each their own though.
Jake

[JessOBrien]

Hi Jake,

I've grappled with Tim, but never sparred with stand up fighting. I've put on gloves with him and trained drills, techniques and combinations. But it was never a competition of him trying to beat me or fighting me in a competitive sense. Maybe I was there on the wrong day, and I've only been to Shen Wu a few times.

I'm speaking of sparring at a competitive level, where you are trying to win. Perhaps we are talking about different things?

You mention taking oneself up or down to the students level. That's not sparring as I am defining it. I would define that as productive two man drilling and training. Which is indeed a very important part of CMA as I know it.

EDIT- the only way to learn CMA is through contact. Like I said above, beatings are the preferred method of transmitting the art. However, sparring is something else entirely, in my opinion.

-Jess O

[Fubo]

I've found that sparring with my teachers have been very rewarding. Sometimes they bring their level down to mine and sometimes they turn up the intensity quite a bit, but either way I always learn a tone. I consider that sparring, just with different levels of intensity. The valuable things I get are not only limited to trying to pull things off on someone that's good, but I get to feel how he moves in that kind of situation, and also he gets to feel how i move and can correct me from what he has felt of me.

When I am sparring with my teachers I am trying to "win" and they push me to go as hard as i can (unless we are doing some sparring with less intensity).

[GrahamB]

i think one of the best lessons i ever had with my tai chi chuan practice is my teacher "sparring" hard and fast and being just overwhelmed and not knowing what to do. that feeling of being totally lost can be a stimulus to gain a greater understanding of actual fighting lessons you are being taught.

training like that all of the time might prove to be a waste of time but being overwhelmed ever now and then i think is good for you.

What Bruce said

It all depends what meaning you attach to the word "spar".

Jess, throughout your answer you keep saying again and again about how little time you have and how precious it is with teacher. Now what would you do if you had all the time in the world with that teacher - would your answer be different?