rocking the boat on LHBF

[Strange]

her her her

[Wanderingdragon]

As an overgrown kid, and that we all are, that is of you enjoy fighting still and consider it an artform, I will always cling to the fantasy that is the Ancient recluse developing an invincible fighting method. My god ! It's pure Hollywood, as a rational adult I recognize the logic in these ideas and theories, what I would love to see is some authentic expressions of the forms that are considered in this discussion, as they have been presented to Master Wu.

[drifting]

The mechanics are the same - and frankly, LHBF's mechanics are not as unique as most LHBF people make them out to be

Definitely, the same physics and physiology should be common in the internal arts. Thats why I say that Liuhebafa doesnt become Liuhebafa until it reaches a very high stage, at which the part that is unique is ready to emerge and take the practitioner in a distinct direction. That could be said for Taiji or the others come to think of it!

Duliu Tongbei does not resemble what most people think of as Tongbei - it is not an "ape system". The Tongbei still refers to power transmitted through the back and into the limbs (which is part of what I was talking about in terms of mechanics).

There are a few branches of Tongbei yes, and the meaning "through the back" refers to the spinal power used, which from my experience is or should be what is or should be utilized in Liuhebafa. Duliu Tongbei is also based on the 24 movements, which comprises the other Tongbei systems too. Many branches of Tongbei themselves say that their founder is Chen Xi Yi, though not agreed on unanimously.

As for Wu having a teacher for each of the separate systems - Wu said as much in his writings. When I get back to the States I will translate and post what Wu had to say about Lu Hong Ba Shi and his various teachers.

I dont know about the "separate systems" part, but Wu spoke of his 4 teachers yes, 3 he said himself were of the Huayue Xiyi Men clan practicing Liuhebafa, and 1 was his teacher Song Qing Wen of Luhong Bashi of which he passed down the names of 8 successive generations and information about the founder Lu Hong Wen. Of the 3 Liuhebafa people Wu stated that they were "of the same clan", but didnt speak at all of any similarities/differences in what they taught him. It was only recent generations who started saying that Wu learned 3 versions of Liuhebafa and taught it 3 ways, but that turned out to be only speculation that resulted from the difference in interpretations found within Wu's students, and simply wasnt the case as far as anybody can say. Prior to them though there were some mention of names such as “Yuan Tong Ba Fa 元通八法” of Master Yuan Rong, and "Xin Yi Liu He Yi Bing 心意六合醫病" of Yang Jing Qun who as we understood was also responsible for "San Pan Shi Er Shi".

The LiuHe Quan had a very long form that, properly practiced, takes about an hour to run through. There were a lot of succesions of movements that looked like they had been taken from both parts of what you are calling the Zuji Quan.

I wouldnt doubt that, but havent others also said that Liuhebafa contains the 13 ways of Taiji, 8 palm changes of Bagua, and the 5 elements of Xingyi! Actually if you really look at it you can find just about anything in Liuhebafa, its a vast wealth of kung fu wrapped up in one package.

Wu also had a teacher who only taught San Pan Shi Er Shi.

If I could re-word that: Wu only had one teacher (of the 3 Liuhebafa teachers) who taught San Pan Shi Er Shi. That was Yan Guo Xing 閻國興.

"Yes, we know about Wu Yihui and LHBF. LHBF was developed by Wu Yihui and his teachers. It was developed from these two systems, and other things that Wu Yihui learned (Chinese: 六合八法 这个拳 是 由 六合拳和八法拳 这两个拳法变化出来的）
We don't know where the whole Daoist myth came from - its a myth. This was developed here (meaning rural Hebei), and Wu Yihui was the person who developed and spread it."

I wouldnt doubt that Liuhebafa came from Liuhe Quan and Bafa Quan, it makes sense and the elements are there, but at the same time Im not totally convinced of it either. Wu was a highly educated man who was both a scholar and a soldier. As I said before I somewhat feel that this conflicts with his character as we know it, founding a style while at the same time claiming a fabricated history to it. If it was his teachers though it may make more sense, as they seemed to be close in proximity and relation to eachother. The taoist legend is no need to even discuss, but Wu's role seems to have many blanks within that raise discussion.
Its also common in other styles as many have already seen for one lesser spread branch to claim authenticity over the mainstream branch, of which half the cases are fabricated and the other half are actually legitimate!

There is information though on the generations before Wu, both from him and from adjacent sources. Some is known about Song Yuan Tong (successor of Li Dong Feng) who developed and introduced the Yu Chuan Jian to the system, Wang De Wei (successor of Yuan Rong) who first started the name "water boxing" and probably developed/discovered the concept, Yang Jing Qun (successor of Pan Zhi Huo) who is believed to have created/extracted the San Pan Shi Er Shi as well as certain other health related concepts, not to mention Wu's second teacher Chen Guang Di (successor of Li Jing Ran, Da Yuan, and Li Chan) of which we know a great deal of. So it isnt a total blank prior to Wu, but I would agree that it is vague. There have been other "claims" though of Liuhebafa lineages that didnt come through Wu...


I dont mean to refute any of what is present, just the contrary, Im waiting to hear more. This is an interesting discussion and theres alot to learn if we all be opened and objective!

[chow_farn]

In a translation of Chen Yi Ren’s book entitled “Liuhebafa Chuan”.
There is a piece written by Jiang Rong Qiao, founder of Jiang Style Bagua Zhang.

Liuhebafa's place of origin is Luyi Village, located in Henan Province's Shen Qiu County. That region, as well as
Heilongjiang Province's Jia Mu Si region, are places where it exists in abundance.

Another specialist in Liuhebafa is Mr. Xu Wen Bing, a feudal official of Jinan City and former manager of Henan
Province's Martial Arts Academy. However, his Liuhebafa is not as refined as that of Wu Yi Hui.

I cannot prove the how accurate the document &/or the transaltion is.
If someone has acces to the origin &/or can translate, it might make it clearer.

But if this is true, then:

1) If Wu had formualted LHBF from a couple of arts, how did Mr. Xu learn LHBF ?

2) If Mr. Xu was not a student of Wu's new art, does this prove that LHBF did in fact exist prior to Wu.

3) Where were the DVD's of master of Wu grandson filmed. We are making the assumption that they were locally /Duliu in Hebei.
Could they have been filmed near Luyi in Henan ?

Just adding some more food for thought & discussion:

Finally:
Which, as far as I am concerned, makes a hell of a lot more sense than the general LHBF mythology we are all familiar with - and it explains why the system seems to have changed over time while Wu Yihui was still alive and teaching - he was stll working on it and changing it throughout his life.
You're lucky KF, I was 'pounced' upon at one time when I posted a question about why there are differences in LHBF Zhuji form. LOL

[Overlord]

3) Where were the DVD's of master of Wu grandson filmed. We are making the assumption that they were locally /Duliu in Hebei.

Hello Ken,

Since CW bring it up, I am just curious about the name of GM Wu's Master or Master's grandson this clip refer to, would you care to disclose it a bit?


Cheers,

Over

[Jarek]

Wu Yihui's son (with Wu's second wife), Mr Wu Yinghua 吴英华 has a set of VCDs released by Guangzhou Beauty. Mr Wu is the main promoter of the system in Mainland China, head of the int'l LHBFQ research association with headquarters in Huainan in Anhui Province. He organizes regular meetings of LHBF pactitioners from all over the world in his hometown.

Re Duliu Tongbei, it is a very respected system in Shanghai. Wu Maogui definitively has decent skill, and while his flavour reflects his Taiji experience under Chu Guiting, Wu's Tongbei comes from pure source - Mr Bao Guanyuan, by some considered the sole inheritor of the system. BTW Mr Qian Zhaohong, XYLHQ practitioner from Shanghai and known to some board members, is also Mr Bao's disciple.

Mr Bao's main principle is that every practitioner should make the art his very own. One of the highest levels of the system is called - "Dream Fighting" 梦打 - when one does not rely on thinking, just pure reflexes, when the art becomes deeply integrated into one's nervous system. On the road to that level personal character and preferences may influence the outside expression of the techniques, however the mechanics remains unchanged.

BTW Duliu Tongbei is also know as Tongbei in 24 Postures (通背24势), Integrated Tongbei (合一通背) or Lotus Leave Tongbei (荷叶通背).

[chow_farn]

Wu Yihui's son (with Wu's second wife), Mr Wu Yinghua 吴英华 has a set of VCDs released by Guangzhou Beauty. Mr Wu is the main promoter of the system in Mainland China, head of the int'l LHBFQ research association with headquarters in Huainan in Anhui Province. He organizes regular meetings of LHBF pactitioners from all over the world in his hometown.

Hi Jarek,
I have the DVD's of these at home.
I don't know how old his son is but on one of them in the back ground is a very old lady in a chair.
Is that Wu's 2nd wife (being that Wu could have married a very young woman) or his sons wife ?

[Jarek]

I do not have the VCDs right here with me, but from your description it seems it could be Wu's second wife. I met the old lady some years ago - she lived with her daughter (Wu Yinghua's sister) in Beixinjing area of Shanghai. She was over 90ty at that time, with very clear mind, speaking perfect northern dialect (she was Manchu), and with true lady's manners.

[drifting]

That was not Wu Ying Hua in the videos, just he endorsed it and put his name on the packaging. Ying Hua never learned Liuhebafa but some said he knew some Taiji, and now seems to be quite involved in promoting his fathers name. He made a decision to add his name to the Liuhebafa lineage as he is Wu's son which alot of people didnt feel right about.

Here is that video which Wu introduces and commentates on, and you can see it oddly change from him to another rounder looking guy at 6:20 mark. No one Ive asked seems to know who is the performer or who he learned from.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc3Njk5MTYw.html

This is Wu Ying Hua who seems to have his fathers stature, with Gum Tung (Cliff Lok) who he is now endorsing and Ive heard will do the same as before with him.

[Overlord]

That was not Wu Ying Hua in the videos, just he endorsed it and put his name on the packaging. Ying Hua never learned Liuhebafa but some said he knew some Taiji, and now seems to be quite involved in promoting his fathers name. He made a decision to add his name to the Liuhebafa lineage as he is Wu's son which alot of people didnt feel right about.

Here is that video which Wu introduces and commentates on, and you can see it oddly change from him to another rounder looking guy at 6:20 mark. No one Ive asked seems to know who is the performer or who he learned from.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc3Njk5MTYw.html

This is Wu Ying Hua who seems to have his fathers stature, with Gum Tung (Cliff Lok) who he is now endorsing and Ive heard will do the same as before with him.

Hi Drifting,

I think he is called Wang Hui, Wu Yinghua's second son-in-law. I think he is a cardiologist.
Cheers,

Over

[drifting]

Oh, thank you Overlord! Ive heard Wu had one son and two daughters, guess theres the relation!

[Wanderingdragon]

Zhu Ji, "the public form",if not transmitted properly at it's basic level , has already lost LHPF. Like any other Martial form, if after you have imbued it with your you, if after you have made it your own, if you do not offer it in teaching the way you were given it, if you have not improved on it you teach it to it's detriment. No copy is ever as good as the original, and only the original can offer up it's true quality, in Martial arts this is especially true, no change is good unless it is proven.

[chow_farn]

@Drifting:
What are some of the 'claims' made by non-Wu lineage ?

If you'd rather not say - I understand ......

[drifting]

I meant that the claim of the non-Wu lineages IS that they are non-Wu lineages!

My first Liuhebafa teacher for example never heard of Wu Yi Hui and believed/assumed that his version which he called "Wudang Liuhebafa" was from Wudang (not modern Wudang) and came from Zhang San Feng... He had nothing but the name of the style to base that on though, an even he didnt know who Wu was that doesnt mean his teacher didnt so whose to say.

I believe though that it is infact a non-Wu style based on the material I was taught, but doesnt really matter to me as a practitioner either way. This version of Zhuji has all 66 moves but an additional 44 mixed within too. Of all the students of Wu that Ive seen no one has had more or less than the 66 moves, or different sequences, or different directions... basically the same Zhuji with a different functional understanding and way of execution.

[Wanderingdragon]

I am truly at a loss on the subject of lineage. Genetically it means having the same bloodlines and genetic codes, so in martial arts, or LHBF, especially, that there are no known non Wu transmissions. Wouldn't that mean that all LHBF should be essentially the same with nothing added or subtracted. I am curious about this because in many of the "Public Forms" I see performed today, I notice many subtlties that are missing, granted much can be given to interpretation, but none should be lost in transmission.