rocking the boat on LHBF

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby chow_farn on Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:25 am

@Drifting:
What are some of the 'claims' made by non-Wu lineage ?

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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby drifting on Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:44 am

I meant that the claim of the non-Wu lineages IS that they are non-Wu lineages!

My first Liuhebafa teacher for example never heard of Wu Yi Hui and believed/assumed that his version which he called "Wudang Liuhebafa" was from Wudang (not modern Wudang) and came from Zhang San Feng... He had nothing but the name of the style to base that on though, an even he didnt know who Wu was that doesnt mean his teacher didnt so whose to say.

I believe though that it is infact a non-Wu style based on the material I was taught, but doesnt really matter to me as a practitioner either way. This version of Zhuji has all 66 moves but an additional 44 mixed within too. Of all the students of Wu that Ive seen no one has had more or less than the 66 moves, or different sequences, or different directions... basically the same Zhuji with a different functional understanding and way of execution.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:55 am

I am truly at a loss on the subject of lineage. Genetically it means having the same bloodlines and genetic codes, so in martial arts, or LHBF, especially, that there are no known non Wu transmissions. Wouldn't that mean that all LHBF should be essentially the same with nothing added or subtracted. I am curious about this because in many of the "Public Forms" I see performed today, I notice many subtlties that are missing, granted much can be given to interpretation, but none should be lost in transmission.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby kenneth fish on Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:28 am

Just to clarify: I did not mean to imply that the video of Wu Yinghua was filmed in Duliu, or that LHBF has anything to do with Du Liu Tong Bei - it just so happened that I stumbled on this bit of information while I was visiting with a Du Liu Tong Bei teacher in Du Liu.

Also, Jarek: I did not mean any slight on Wu Maogui - it is simply that what he shows is different from what I saw and experienced as Du Liu Tong Bei.

In an old copy of Wu Lin there is a reprint of a newspaper article by Wu Yihui where he lays out whom he studied what with - as I said I will translate it an post it when I return.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:46 am

That will be cool, even better if you post the original text as well.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby drifting on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:12 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:I am truly at a loss on the subject of lineage. Genetically it means having the same bloodlines and genetic codes, so in martial arts, or LHBF, especially, that there are no known non Wu transmissions.

Lineage is trivial, its just interesting to know our past. But are indeed several non-Wu lineages though that Ive come across, they cant be proven though... nor disproven for that matter.

Wanderingdragon wrote:Wouldn't that mean that all LHBF should be essentially the same with nothing added or subtracted.

No body dedicates their life to something without putting part of themselves within it. Some things are doubted, some are misunderstood, some are simplified, some are expanded. We dont all get the same foundations either, so all in all it is very unlikely for it to all be the same with nothing added or subtracted. However, if you consider Liuhebafa in the same terms as you would a mathematical equation then in the cases where each step has been observed and correct, and all the variables are the same, then we should arrive at the same conclusion. The variables though are time, ability, physiology, background, attitude, ego...

Wanderingdragon wrote:I am curious about this because in many of the "Public Forms" I see performed today, I notice many subtlties that are missing, granted much can be given to interpretation, but none should be lost in transmission.

There is always something lost in transmittion! You spent time and effort with your teacher, but did you get a full transmittion, and was there any static in that transmittion?

We are not limited by our teachers though. Liuhebafa is clear and defined and out there to be discovered, but we need alot of help along the way!
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:16 am

1 is always 1 the world over no matter if has evolved to algebra or calculus or physics, you never get there without the very basic understanding that 1 is never anything else. Every word is created from an alphabet it is either not a word or a different word if the letters are not the same. When one is taught abc's and 123s nothing is lost I the transmission, it only becomes your own in use not in lesson.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Overlord on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:55 am

kenneth fish wrote:I was in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, Hebei, for a bit about a week ago. The town, called 独流 duliu, is about an hour and change from Tianjin. Its very well known for tough martial artists, and a very complete kind of Tongbei, called Duliu Taizu Tongbeiquan 独流太祖通背拳。 (The Taizu is not the same as the Songtaizu - it is a local term referring to this kind of Tongbei) I was introduced to one of the top people in the area, and visited him and his martial arts family. The teacher is my age, and there were a couple of his elder classmates too - they also demonstrated a bit, and were spry and powerful in their 70's. Things took a turn for the unexpected late in the day - we were watching some films that they had made of the system, and some footage of other systems was on the disc as well - luhong Bashi, Bafa Quan, and Liuhe Quan, all native to the general area. I was very interested in what I saw - the BaFa Quan and the LiuHe Quan (not the Shaolin Temple Liuhe) had several very long forms - and they bore a very strong resemblance to major sections of LHBF - with very similar mechanics, but with much more visible force and exertion, like old style Lohan or Weito Shaolin. (There was also some Erlang Quan, but thats another story). So I asked about the Bafa Quan and the Liuhe Quan - and this was what I was told (which, btw, is consistent with both Wu Yihui's writings and the historical research done on LHBF by the local government) -"These are systems that have been practiced in this area for a long time - probably going back to late Ming or early Qing dynasty. They are well known here and throughout Hebei." "That teacher (indicating a gent on the CD) is the grandson of one of Wu Yihui's teachers." "Yes, we know about Wu Yihui and LHBF. LHBF was developed by Wu Yihui and his teachers. It was developed from these two systems, and other things that Wu Yihui learned (Chinese: 六合八法 这个拳 是 由 六合拳和八法拳 这两个拳法变化出来的)
We don't know where the whole Daoist myth came from - its a myth. This was developed here (meaning rural Hebei), and Wu Yihui was the person who developed and spread it."

Which, as far as I am concerned, makes a hell of a lot more sense than the general LHBF mythology we are all familiar with - and it explains why the system seems to have changed over time while Wu Yihui was still alive and teaching - he was stll working on it and changing it throughout his life.


It’s about nine years ago, Kenneth was making a big claim that Wu Yihui created Liuhebafa with evidence, yet today he had not shown a shred of evidence to support this claim. I am still waiting for any trace of evidence such as a small clip to entice me. We want to rocked by Kenneth, truely.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:10 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4g31YToQQY

Is this the Bafa Quan Ken referred to?
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Tom on Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:08 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4g31YToQQY

Is this the Bafa Quan Ken referred to?


Not sure, Nelson. Ken would have to answer that (if he sees this and feels like it).
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Peacedog on Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:44 am

FWIW, Ken has an operating medical service in southern Maryland. If someone really wanted an answer, they could probably just call the guy.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Trick on Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:54 am

although ive got that tip from Jarek before on this forum, im happy this thread came back in focus(i was not around here back in 2011) jarek's post in this thread that mention Huainan as an important place/hub for LHBF here on mainland china spark my interest and as soon this virus things gone i will move around in the city to find out more, perhaps even take up study LHBF, atleast see if it fit well with my YQ/XYQ/TBQ and taijiquan ive been doing for long years now....maybe even learn som LHBF history to tell here, which seem a happy topic to discuss 8-)
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Tom on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:12 pm

Given your background, Trick, it seems like well-taught LHBF would contain much of interest for your study and training. Wu Yihui was by many accounts a highly skilled martial artist, a master synthesizer of principles and shenfa, and an excellent teacher of his evolving art.

If you have not seen it yet, http://www.liuhebafachuan.com is a very informative website put together by Paul Roberts, whose primary LHBF experience is in the Chen Yiren line of teaching out of Hong Kong.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:12 am

Chinese internal practices are a never-ending font of mystical thingies.


The problem as I see it, speaking about history that is, is that the official versions of history are all extremely simplified. We always hear versions that are condensed to very few people, one originator and his/her most prominent students. There is very little mention of other teachers, their sparring partners, cross-training etc. and generations of different teachers and students are often completely taken out from the equation. So the history we usually hear is like taking out one single thread out of a whole web of threads claiming that the single thread is the whole web.

And btw, I didn’t find Kenneth trying to claim anything in this thread. I also believe that he tried to write from the perspective of his own personal experience and how things make sense for him through his experiences. But some things are very hard to explain with words only.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Overlord on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:07 am

Aside from Wu Yihui, AFAIK there are other branches of Liuhebafa lineages in his time,
1, 左相臣(or 左雙臣)
2、徐文炳
3、黃壽亭(who later learnt from 張長信)
So it’s impossible for Wu Yihui to create Liuhebafa from Liuhe and Bafa fist, it was there generations before Wu.

When Ken says to rock boat on Liuhebafa, if it’s not a claim what is a claim?
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