rocking the boat on LHBF

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:35 am

Overlord wrote:When Ken says to rock boat on Liuhebafa, if it’s not a claim what is a claim?


He wrote: "- and this was what I was told (which, btw, is consistent with both Wu Yihui's writings and the historical research done on LHBF by the local government) "

Read a few times and tell me - where is the claim? What did I miss and exactly where does Ken actually claim anything?

Well, sure, he did in fact claim that he heard someone saying something, that he was told something. But I can't really find that he made any claim on anything regarding the history of LHBF.

BTW, as I have understood, LHBF was developed from an old Shaolin form / old Shaolin tradition which mixed together with local styles. And as it probably developed gradually, there might be no person to claim as the real founder.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:20 am

Sometimes just turning up states your point of view
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:28 am

Overlord,

What do Liuhebafa practitioners -- the ones with decades of experience and in-depth knowledge -- think regarding the origin of the art?

With Gao Bagua, although the founder Gao Yisheng claimed to have learned the post-heaven 64 palms from a mysterious Daoist named Song Yiren 宋異人(送藝人), it is pretty obvious that it was Gao himself who created them by mixing and matching sanshou techniques from Xingyi, Dahongchuan, and Cheng style Bagua. (This view was corroborated by Kang Gewu, the well-known Bagua historian.)
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:29 am

Tom wrote:Given your background, Trick, it seems like well-taught LHBF would contain much of interest for your study and training. Wu Yihui was by many accounts a highly skilled martial artist, a master synthesizer of principles and shenfa, and an excellent teacher of his evolving art.

If you have not seen it yet, http://www.liuhebafachuan.com is a very informative website put together by Paul Roberts, whose primary LHBF experience is in the Chen Yiren line of teaching out of Hong Kong.

thanks for the link, will check it out
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:24 am

What do Liuhebafa practitioners -- the ones with decades of experience and in-depth knowledge -- think regarding the origin of the art?


Just my thought and I am surely not a qualified person to talk (having been doing LHBF from Chan Yik Yan and Wan Tin Hung lines for more than three decades, and can only acquire very superficial knowledge on the art both on the theories and body expression), and cannot speak for other LHBF practitioners.

We all know there are lot of rumours and controversies on the origin of LHBF (so as other styles), and even more on its methodology. Does it have its own approach or a combination of three major internal arts? Chinese martial arts always attach itself to their founder or somebody from the past. Wu YiHui may be the first person to teach LHBF to the public, and he has claimed the style is from Chen Tuan in Song Dynasty. There were other teachers at his time as Overload had mentioned but their names didn’t come up as often. We want more solid evidences on it. And then we want more on the generations before them if possible upto Chen Tuan. And even go further than Chen Tuan. The Bashi paper has names from generation to generation. They are just names without backgrounds and histories.

Of course, it is beneficial to have as much information as possible on the ancestor. It helps to anticipate the evolvement of the art. I guess we know we are being influenced by many things when we walk along the path. Let’s say we have very solid evidences that LHBF is originated from Chen Tuan in Song Dynasty, it would hardly be the same now after a thousand years evolvement. I put myself in the art itself more than its history. The history is to help understanding the art at its source. In Chinese tradition, we respect the ancestor and the things they have passed on so we have the lineage.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Overlord on Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:46 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Overlord,

What do Liuhebafa practitioners -- the ones with decades of experience and in-depth knowledge -- think regarding the origin of the art?

With Gao Bagua, although the founder Gao Yisheng claimed to have learned the post-heaven 64 palms from a mysterious Daoist named Song Yiren 宋異人(送藝人), it is pretty obvious that it was Gao himself who created them by mixing and matching sanshou techniques from Xingyi, Dahongchuan, and Cheng style Bagua. (This view was corroborated by Kang Gewu, the well-known Bagua historian.)


I will pass this question to Strange.
In my opinion he is the only one here to answer this question.

Regarding to Kang Gewu, he also comments Liuhebafa the byproduct of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. The funny thing is his grandmaster Jiang Rongqiao a Xingyi Bagua expert, after learning only a half of Liuhebafa attested it’s way too complex to be a byproduct of Xingyi Taiji and Bagua.

Funny you bring up Gao Bagua, not sure what branch of Gao Bagua you are from.
AFAIK in Taiwan, the only Gao Bagua practioner inherited from Zhang Junfeng is Hong Yixiang,
During my visit in Taiwan to Tiger laoshi, A han laoshi and A pei laoshi, and from earliest to late students of Hong, they were not aware that Hong was expelled from Zhang’s school. This is vastly different from what Kenneth had claimed. In fact Hong’s family still got a cassette tape recording Zhang’s last words, he even said that if later on his students find something is missing in the taught techniques they should seek out Hong Yixiang to fill in the gap and complete the study.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Strange on Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:46 pm

CJW,
Chen YiRen's <Liu He Ba Fa> states clearly that LHBF is from Chen Tuan (ChenXiYi).

Chen tried the imperial exams for an official's post; but failed.
disillusioned, he wandered amongst mountains and rivers as an escape
living as a hermit in Wudang, Jiu Shi Yan
later he moved to Yun Tai Guan, at Tai Hua
Spent his time studying the Book of Change and predicted his own death
His writings include:
指玄篇
高阳集
钓潭集
三峰寓言
六合八法
二十四气导引法

after Chen Xi Yi, LHBF succeeded by Li Dong Feng,
next is a Daoist Yuan Tong, next is Wang De Wei, the first to call LHBF, Water Fist,
next is Daoist Yuan Rong, next is passed to Ye and Li (full name unknown), both taught
LHBF to cure sickness, and so on....

So there is no need to think, we already know.
But you are right, those who do not know, may "think" many different things
such as LHBF is derived from other arts.
Jiang RongQiao have do this type of "thinking" before.
He said that 30 years ago i thought the same, after many years of checking and asking
he had proven that LHBF is not related or derived from other arts
this is in the preface of <LHBF> by Chen YiRen, published September 1969

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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Strange on Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:52 pm

Actually should thank Ken for his attention on LHBF.
From Hebei and DuLiu.... quite far away
I do not need to look so far, around 45 min drive i can find ppl practicing different type of LHBF
with official sanction from Singapore MA federation.

from LHBF history, the art is mainly taught is Daoist and Chinese medicine circles.
So I use Zhuangzi dreaming of butterfly
He said he himself is not clear, who is dreaming of whom.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:53 am

Overlord wrote:Regarding to Kang Gewu, he also comments Liuhebafa the byproduct of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. The funny thing is his grandmaster Jiang Rongqiao a Xingyi Bagua expert, after learning only a half of Liuhebafa attested it’s way too complex to be a byproduct of Xingyi Taiji and Bagua.

Funny you bring up Gao Bagua, not sure what branch of Gao Bagua you are from.
AFAIK in Taiwan, the only Gao Bagua practioner inherited from Zhang Junfeng is Hong Yixiang,
During my visit in Taiwan to Tiger laoshi, A han laoshi and A pei laoshi, and from earliest to late students of Hong, they were not aware that Hong was expelled from Zhang’s school. This is vastly different from what Kenneth had claimed. In fact Hong’s family still got a cassette tape recording Zhang’s last words, he even said that if later on his students find something is missing in the taught techniques they should seek out Hong Yixiang to fill in the gap and complete the study.

My exposure to Liuhebafa is quite limited, but from what I have seen (especially Master Kam Tung's demos), I can tell it contains body mechanics (i.e. power generation) that are quite different from the Xingyi and Bagua that I know.

My Gao Bagua is not from Zhang's lineage, and I am afraid I am not at all familiar with the politics that has been going on within the Yizong school.

My grand teacher's father was a wealthy landowner -- and an avid martial artist -- from Gao Yisheng's hometown in Shandong. They had known each other even before Gao began learning Bagua from Cheng Tinghua's student Zhou Xiang. When Gao returned from Beijing as an accomplished Bagua master, he was so impressed by his skills that he hired Gao as his family's live-in bodyguard and private Bagua teacher for both him and his young son. He also helped Gao set up a Bagua school in town and became his very first disciple. (This piece of history and his name are both mentioned in Liu Fengtsai's book on Gao style Bagua.)

As far as I know, my lineage is perhaps the oldest Gao system in existence that predates all other major lines passed down by people who studied under Gao in Tianjin (e.g., Zhang Junfeng, Wu Mengxia, and He Kecai). It is quite similar to Liu Fengtsai's line, but still contains noticeable differences in flavor and movements -- especially in the Post-heaven 64 palms. (One of the reasons being that my grand teacher and his father also learned Xingyi from Shang Yuxiang, and incorporated elements of Shang style Xingyi into their Gao Bagua.)

On an interesting side note, my late grand teacher apparently had mentioned on numerous occasions that when he and his father first began training under Gao, the Post-Heaven 64 palms didn't exist and there was no "Gao style Bagua." Gao would just randomly demonstrate and teach them circle-walking drills and sanshou techniques. It wasn't until later when Gao began to stylize his art and give names to the techniques, and all of the sudden there was the story of this mysterious Daoist who had taught him the "complete" system of Bagua that even Dong Haichuan didn't know.... ;)

So if we were to compare the 64 palms from my lineage to the ones in the Yizong school, the first thing you'd notice is that ours are relatively short and simple -- most likely "prototypes" from the days when Gao was still formulating his own art.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby GrahamB on Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:15 am

"For I was yet scarcely fallen asleep, when I thought that I, together with an innumerable multitude of men, lay fettered with great chains in a dark dungeon, in which, without the least glimpse of light, we swarmed like bees one over another, and thus rendered each other's affliction more grievous. But although neither I nor any of the rest could see one jot, yet I continually heard one heaving himself above the other, when his chains and fetters had become ever so slightly lighter, though none of us had much reason to shove up above the other, since we were all captive wretches. "
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:00 am

Overlord wrote:Can you back up your Shaolin LHBF understanding witn some sort of reference or evidence?
Ken, Tom, and you probably have never done any solid LHBF training consistently before, yet speculate so much,
for instance Ken suddenly found similarities between Liuhe/ Bafa and LHBF’s body mechanic... Tom bitching about Chen Tuan lineage, you mumble about Shaolin.


Tom wrote:I don't know whether Bao has trained in Liuhebafa, but I do know him to be a skilled observer of movement and body mechanics. I know who Ken trained Liuhebafa with, and that he got "solid training." I've been fortunate enough to have received some basic teaching in LHBF movement, technique and theory from some well-qualified teachers. But all of that is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, which is the provenance of Liuhebafa. One does not need to be a practitioner to wonder about the origins of LHBF.
)


Overlord, I don’t have any good way to provide evidence and I haven’t studied the LHBF, but I do practice something related that is also very similar to at least one branch of LHBF in terms of “posture” and body mechanics (I think you should already know that there are at least two different versions of LHBF with pretty different mechanics.)

But from brief discussions with Kenneth a few years ago, I am pretty much convinced that he knows much more about this subject than he gives the impression of here.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby suckinlhbf on Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:50 pm

LHBF was developed from an old Shaolin form / old Shaolin tradition which mixed together with local styles


A kung fu magazine editor in China interviewed me several years ago, and we chatted about the origin of LHBF. He is a close friend of Wu Ying Wah (son of Wu YiHui), and somehow helped to organize the LHBF association as Wu wanted to preserve the "art of his father". He said folks in the close circle knew that Wu YiHui had very good skills and LHBF was created by him. I have met some people practice and research in LHBF for decades, they hold the own opinion that the style is Wu's creation despite information on the books. His son, Wu Ying Wah expressed LHBF as both "Shaolin and WuDang". There may be some Shaolin element in it. I am fortunate in a way that I can meet those LHBF people who are honest to the art, to the history, and to themselves.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Overlord on Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:57 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
Overlord wrote:Regarding to Kang Gewu, he also comments Liuhebafa the byproduct of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. The funny thing is his grandmaster Jiang Rongqiao a Xingyi Bagua expert, after learning only a half of Liuhebafa attested it’s way too complex to be a byproduct of Xingyi Taiji and Bagua.

Funny you bring up Gao Bagua, not sure what branch of Gao Bagua you are from.
AFAIK in Taiwan, the only Gao Bagua practioner inherited from Zhang Junfeng is Hong Yixiang,
During my visit in Taiwan to Tiger laoshi, A han laoshi and A pei laoshi, and from earliest to late students of Hong, they were not aware that Hong was expelled from Zhang’s school. This is vastly different from what Kenneth had claimed. In fact Hong’s family still got a cassette tape recording Zhang’s last words, he even said that if later on his students find something is missing in the taught techniques they should seek out Hong Yixiang to fill in the gap and complete the study.

My exposure to Liuhebafa is quite limited, but from what I have seen (especially Master Kam Tung's demos), I can tell it contains body mechanics (i.e. power generation) that are quite different from the Xingyi and Bagua that I know.

My Gao Bagua is not from Zhang's lineage, and I am afraid I am not at all familiar with the politics that has been going on within the Yizong school.

My grand teacher's father was a wealthy landowner -- and an avid martial artist -- from Gao Yisheng's hometown in Shandong. They had known each other even before Gao began learning Bagua from Cheng Tinghua's student Zhou Xiang. When Gao returned from Beijing as an accomplished Bagua master, he was so impressed by his skills that he hired Gao as his family's live-in bodyguard and private Bagua teacher for both him and his young son. He also helped Gao set up a Bagua school in town and became his very first disciple. (This piece of history and his name are both mentioned in Liu Fengtsai's book on Gao style Bagua.)

As far as I know, my lineage is perhaps the oldest Gao system in existence that predates all other major lines passed down by people who studied under Gao in Tianjin (e.g., Zhang Junfeng, Wu Mengxia, and He Kecai). It is quite similar to Liu Fengtsai's line, but still contains noticeable differences in flavor and movements -- especially in the Post-heaven 64 palms. (One of the reasons being that my grand teacher and his father also learned Xingyi from Shang Yuxiang, and incorporated elements of Shang style Xingyi into their Gao Bagua.)

On an interesting side note, my late grand teacher apparently had mentioned on numerous occasions that when he and his father first began training under Gao, the Post-Heaven 64 palms didn't exist and there was no "Gao style Bagua." Gao would just randomly demonstrate and teach them circle-walking drills and sanshou techniques. It wasn't until later when Gao began to stylize his art and give names to the techniques, and all of the sudden there was the story of this mysterious Daoist who had taught him the "complete" system of Bagua that even Dong Haichuan didn't know.... ;)

So if we were to compare the 64 palms from my lineage to the ones in the Yizong school, the first thing you'd notice is that ours are relatively short and simple -- most likely "prototypes" from the days when Gao was still formulating his own art.


Hi CJW
Didn’t know you are from Wu Jinyuan lineage if I am correct,
it’s really a lineage I don’t know much about! Thanks for the information!

You are right, LHBF and Xingyi Bagua is totally different body mechanics.
Out few LHBF people I encountered two schools really impressed me,
1, Lu Ziyun school, where Strange is from. It’s very natural but very unnatural. And i assure you it’s very applicable.
2, Kim Tung school, it’s very painstaking precise and extremely complex and detail.

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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby Strange on Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:49 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
LHBF was developed from an old Shaolin form / old Shaolin tradition which mixed together with local styles


His son, Wu Ying Wah expressed LHBF as both "Shaolin and WuDang". There may be some Shaolin element in it. I am fortunate in a way that I can meet those LHBF people who are honest to the art, to the history, and to themselves.


Brother, can you help to show some article, publication, book written by Wu YingWah?
My opinion is that for this sort of matter, some form of published article is most reliable
thanks

Chen YiRen's opinion is that there have always been a fluid exchange between ppl and schools; and as such it is very difficult to trace an exact source. My teacher told me that the current LHBF has been modified once; but did not go
on to further elaborate on the details.

As a student, i follow what my teacher taught me.
If one is to say that i am spreading fairy-tales; i can assure you my teacher's skill is very real.
Of course, there are in existence many ppl who are much higher talent than i am.
in this case, to me, an analogy i would use is like someone try to learn capoeira but do not like the music.
is it possible to change the music? ; surely it is possible.
is it capoeira if the music is change?; this question I am not able to answer, i am not so high level.
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Re: rocking the boat on LHBF

Postby suckinlhbf on Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:30 pm

can you help to show some article, publication, book written by Wu YingWah?

Its from their personal conversation. Well, the publications to the public are something else. It doesn't bother me at all. CMA is a big piece of puzzle. Everybody gets his own piece/pieces so is his style. It can be named as whatever, lhbf, abcd, efgh.....etc. The core and principle are the essence, and a style gives a path to get to the same destination.

there have always been a fluid exchange between ppl and schools; and as such it is very difficult to trace an exact source

We do have exchanges, and we work on techniques, powers....etc in the direction of Five Words Song, and LHBF Song. We also work a lot on the jin and feeling. Richard is a student of Chen. We got together every week before he passed away to get the feeling from his touch hand with Chen. Ken is the student of Wan, and we do the same on what Wan has passed on. We study and compare the difference of Chen and Wan through crossing hands. It is quite interesting. We try to get things fit into Five Words Song and LHBF Song, and how to understand the two songs. It's our cap. For sure you know where the two songs come from. I did the same with a student of Wang XiangZhai. Our path is different so are the experience and thinking. I went to join Capoeria years ago but never started training. I think rhythm work better than music.
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