(Physiological) Alchemy and TCMA

[Miro]

Ken Fish recently opened thread "what internal means, IMO". Perhaps it will be interesting to someone to read a few random thoughts about this subject from my point of view:
In the very beginnings of Chinese writing system, character wu 武 of wushu 武術 was equal to character wu 舞 meaning dancing and also to character wu 巫 meaning witchcraft (all three characters were more-less interchangeable). And the whole Chinese culture is originally of Daoist (understand shamanic) origin. Daoism is usually divided into Daoist philosophy (Daojia) and Daoist religion (Daojiao), although many scholars recently expressed their doubts about meaningfulness of this distinction. And surely, men like Laozi or Zhuangzi were not only philosophers - because no philosopher can discover that "normal people breathe from throat, wise men breathe from heel" (Zhuangzi chapter 15), this is expression of practical knowledge of the body practice, of inward training, and man with this kind of knowledge is not "philosopher" anymore, he is simply practitioner. If there is any difference between Daojia and Daojiao, it is that former were satisfied with "life and death cycle" while latter tried to reach physical immortality by various spiritual techniques, primarily by sex, breathing, massages, movements of the body, physiological alchemy and meditations - but many of these spiritual techniques were practiced by both groups.
Therefore there are breathing and other techniques described in Guanzi (text whose some parts are supposed to be even older than Laozi, including chapter with breathing, called Neiye, Inward Training), there is Laozi, Zhuangzi and other "philosophers" with many descriptions of various spiritual techniques, there are numerous texts belonging to Daoist "religion", there are many "professional" text (like text of medicine, astrology, sexual education etc.) and the same thing is even in the chan/zen Buddhist scriptures - through all of them you can see the same thing in the background: returning jing into qi and shen, returning jing to nourish brain.
And you can find the same thing related to all great internal martial artists: it is said about Chen Wanting (ancestor of Chen style taijiquan) that he always had Huang ting scripture with himself and this very important book of internal alchemy, founder of baguaquan Dong Haichuan taught system that is obviously related to very deep level of alchemy, Sun Lutang wrote directly about special system of microcosmic orbits (different from the general view of Chinese medicine), Sun Xikun (of baguaquan) wrote about general principles of alchemy, Du Xinwu (of Ziranmen) was direct inheritor of one of the nei-dan (inner elixir) school, as well as recently departed Wang Yannian (of taijiquan)...
TCMA is truly a child of this system of Chinese physiological alchemy. Of course, no system can exist in its pure form and therefore TCMA was mixed with medical practitioners, with street performers, with professional fighters (bodyguards as well as criminals). The aim of alchemy is to know myself, if I know myself, I know also others and naturally physical knowledge means knowledge of using the body in various circumstances, including fighting. This is the way from top to the bottom, I would say. But there was always way from the bottom to the top: many fighters later became practitioners - for example, the most frequent reason for stopping to practice martial arts in Taiwan is that practitioner becomes fully involved in some religion... If you know alchemy or religion or any higher knowledge, you will not have interest in fighting - and that is also reason why there are not so many internal TCMA figters: to them, fighting is for laugh - they can fight but they are not interested to fight. Interest in fighting is low-level, it just shows that person does not know too much...
Kungfu and traditional Chinese martial arts is direct descendant of this search for physical immortality. TCMA is follower of those Daoist practices and Shamanic techniques working with one's own self. It is centered inward, not outward.
Oldest xingyi is just combination of wuxing (five phases or elements) and animal styles, later taijiquan is based on liangyi (yin-yang) theory (including five phases, imho) and latest baguaquan combined all those principles of liangyi, wuxing and bagua. In the terms of internal - external dichotomy, besides excellent article of Zhang Yun (http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Neijia-Waijia/arti_NW.htm) there are also other characteristics:
1. focus: mind of external artist is on the result (process is less important) - mind of internal artist is on the process (result is less important)
Your result: if your aim is fighting, you are external, you can not be internal because if your mind is outside, on your opponent, you can not be aware of details inside of your body (which means that 99% of people who proclaim to be internal do not know what they are talking and they are not internal at all).
2. zangfu: internal artist works directly with internal organs, especially five zang/full organs heart, lungs, liver, kidney and spleen - external artist does not.
Your result: if you do not feel or even do not know where your spleen actually is and how it works, stop dreaming about being internal.
3. system: xingyi is wuxing system, taiji is liangyi system, bagua is bagua system, for internal artist, these three systems should become his/her own body (or in his own body, if you prefer this formulation) and those systems are "working organs" of his art - naturally external artist does not have this thing.
Your result: if you do not feel wuxing, taiji and bagua inside of your body, if they are not part of your body, then why to call it internal?
4. alchemy: internal artist works jing - qi - shen - void transmutation and this necessarily means also a change of character - external artist does not have chance to understand it practically and if he changed his character, it is not direct consequence of this transmutation.
Your result: if you did not change during your practice, if you are still this self-centered fighter, you did not understand anything, you failed.

Regards
Miro

[Ian]

Do you also believe in astrology?

fighting is for laugh - they can fight but they are not interested to fight. Interest in fighting is low-level, it just shows that person does not know too much...

I always knew GM Chang was low level.

[shawnsegler]

I predict this thread gets ugly fast.

S

[Formosa Neijia]

And you can find the same thing related to all great internal martial artists: it is said about Chen Wanting (ancestor of Chen style taijiquan) that he always had Huang ting scripture with himself and this very important book of internal alchemy, founder of baguaquan Dong Haichuan taught system that is obviously related to very deep level of alchemy, Sun Lutang wrote directly about special system of microcosmic orbits (different from the general view of Chinese medicine), Sun Xikun (of baguaquan) wrote about general principles of alchemy, Du Xinwu (of Ziranmen) was direct inheritor of one of the nei-dan (inner elixir) school, as well as recently departed Wang Yannian (of taijiquan)...
TCMA is truly a child of this system of Chinese physiological alchemy.

... many fighters later became practitioners - for example, the most frequent reason for stopping to practice martial arts in Taiwan is that practitioner becomes fully involved in some religion... If you know alchemy or religion or any higher knowledge, you will not have interest in fighting - and that is also reason why there are not so many internal TCMA fighters: to them, fighting is for laugh - they can fight but they are not interested to fight. Interest in fighting is low-level, it just shows that person does not know too much..

... alchemy: internal artist works jing - qi - shen - void transmutation and this necessarily means also a change of character - external artist does not have chance to understand it practically and if he changed his character, it is not direct consequence of this transmutation.
Your result: if you did not change during your practice, if you are still this self-centered fighter, you did not understand anything, you failed.

Miro,
Excellent post, but you have to understand that no one wants to hear this stuff. All people want to hear is what steroid-user Royce Gracie or whatever UFC flavor of the month is popular now has to say. (I'm enjoying these smileys.)

As you say, almost every single recognized expert in CIMA trained internal alchemy (neigong). But most people don't have access to neigong and frankly wouldn't know what to do with it even if they did. Again, as you say, it's what makes your style truly internal or not but it can't be seen or recognized by beginners. Therefore it's not highly valued in the wider community.

As such, I expect this thread to go into BTDT fairly quickly.

Getting over the need to fight is something that I didn't expect as a consequence of neigong training. Training the true internal means dealing with negative emotions trapped in the body, especially in the organs but also in the musculature, etc., and that forces you to deal with the desire/need to fight, etc. It forces you to think about what you have to prove to yourself and others and why you feel that need.

Through some of that training, I think I eventually realized what the classics, etc. were trying to tell me -- it's about NOT fighting.

Even when we face an opponent, we don't "fight" them. That implies a struggle against an opposing force. We don't train to directly oppose force. As such, our methods are SUPPOSED to be different, even if they aren't as many people practice them.

Going through neigong training is part of what makes this clear.

Dave C.

[Ian]

Your result: if your aim is fighting, you are external, you can not be internal because if your mind is outside, on your opponent, you can not be aware of details inside of your body (which means that 99% of people who proclaim to be internal do not know what they are talking and they are not internal at all).

if you are still this self-centered fighter, you did not understand anything, you failed.

People like Su dong chen, you mean?

You sound way too xian tian dao gu for me. I'm outta here.

[C.J.Wang]

This sounds like one of those "internal is better than external" ideas revisited.

Are you saying that styles other than Xinyi (5 elements), Taiji (Liangyi), and Bagua (Bagua) are all external because they don't work with the mind and organs?

Fukien White Crane has 5 elements - gold, wood, water, fire, and earth hands - along with complex internal breathing methods; Hung Gar includes internal training so well-designed that specific sounds and emtions are used to train the organs; Baji has secret training methods that strengthen each individual organ for specific fa-jin purposes; Tongbei has a system of internal work upon which the popular "Wai Dan Gung" widely-practiced in Taiwan and South East Asia is based on.

As for internal development, although its an integral part of TCMA training, it's not to be confused with marital art itself. I have met Qigung practitioners with high-level of neigong development but don't konw a thing about fighting.

[I-mon]

good stuff miro. it's BTDT for sure, but at least it starts with something thought-provoking and inflammatory rather than completely noobish.

first up your definition of internal according to wuxing, liang-yi, bagua, will not stand because they are chinese constructs - just pure feeling of and working with the inside of the body (in other words the entire body, including the deep internal areas of which we are not usually conscious) and it's connection to the mind, in greater detail over time and practice, is both the method and the goal of "Internal Practice".(IMHO)

"Internal Martial Arts" are about using that process of ever-increasing awareness and control for Martial Arts. Obviously.

this top-down and bottom-up paths of training idea is something i've been wondering about a bit as well. I try to work in and from both directions myself but it seems to me that there are lots of "low-level" physical practices which need to be passed in order for there to be a strong foundation for later practices.

at least when it comes to martial arts, there is a common feeling that practice of meditation and qigong will get you nowhere. i believe this is because most people who claim to have practiced meditation and qigong are like most people who claim to have learned taiji or karate - they've looked into it, but they haven't spent thousands of hours practicing, and are therefore not "practitioners".

someone who's spent thousands of hours practicing meditation or any kind of mind-body something practice should be able to learn martial arts quicker, and maybe deeper than someone who hasn't practiced anything. someone who's spent thousands of hours practicing martial arts should definitely be able to fight better and learn internal martial arts even quicker and than the meditator, but maybe not quite as deep and maybe without noticing the subtleties of mind-body connection.

when it comes to meditation, or inner-alchemy type stuff, the problem is that thinking about it and even "understanding it", is not the same or even close to the same as actually practicing it. in martial arts it is easy to see and feel if someone has practiced and embodied or merely thought and "understood". in meditation or "spiritual" practice it is much easier to fool other people, and also easier to fool ourselves into thinking that we are practicing and developing when actually we are just getting old thinking about it. it's much more difficult to fool ourselves with the "low-level" stuff, so if we start there - with horse stance, for example - and work in and up into more subtle skills, we train on a foundation of honesty and reality and palpable results-based practice, whereas if we start with alchemical philosophy and extremely subtle mind-body stuff we could spend a lifetime in confusion and daydreams.

obviously this is all relative and some people have to practice their whole lives to achieve less than what others have got already without training. i also don't believe any practice is wasted practice, every little bit is as much as it is and is good. some progress is made, some little change takes place.

[qiphlow]

all roads lead to rome, as they say.

[I-mon]

People like Su dong chen, you mean?

ian we don't (or i don't) know anything about su dong chen. it seems like his martial arts skill is very high. we don't know if he shouts at his children, how he treats his wife, whether he cuts in front of people in shops at the checkout, or how often he is relaxed and happy or pissed off and bitter. no disrespect intended to the guy.

BTDT within an hour.

[johnwang]

This sounds like one of those "internal is better than external" ideas revisited.

We have never heard any "external" guy said, "If you don't have this and that then you should not dream about yourself as an external guy." External guys love to accept everybody as "equal". It's the "internal" guys that do not. Why "internal" guys always treat "external" guys as 2nd class citizen and low level life form?

How will you feel about this if I just modify the original text a bit as below?

1. If your aim is meditation, you are internal, you can not be external because if your mind is inside, on your body, you can not be aware of details outside of your opponent (which means that 99% of people who proclaim to be external do not know what they are talking and they are not external at all).
2.if you do not know what entering and finish strategies are and how it works, stop dreaming about being external.
3. if you do not feel strong bone, strong muscle, tough skin outside of your body, if they are not part of your body, then why to call it external?
4. if you did not change during your practice, if you are still this self-centered tree hugger, you did not understand anything, you failed.

Sorry! It's just so much fun and I can't help it.

[I-mon]

if you did not change during your practice, if you are still this self-centered tree hugger, you did not understand anything, you failed.

good one

[mixjourneyman]

Why even bother

[mixjourneyman]

forget I said anything

[mixjourneyman]

Who cares what the purpose of internal martial arts is as long as we all have a good time doing them?

[Walter Joyce]

I think that Miro over reaches in his arguments, but it is clear that what he is offering is part of his belief system, sot it is not based on logic but faith, most likely.

I agree with some of his viewpoints, and not so much with others, but I didn't feel the need to insult him or try to ridicule him.

I'm old school in that I am less concerned with what others choose to believe or do than with what I choose to believe and do.

Although I am 52 now and don't train to fight per se, I spent years training with developing fighting skills as the goal, but I too think of myself as a spiritual person. If I'm not mistaken even some of those among us (us being martial artists, or fighters if you prefer) who started their training in internal fighting arts focused solely on practical fighting skills have acknowledged after years of training that some of these practices stimulated the spiritual within them.

I was told that there are over 200 standing postures used in TCM, and that those used in fighting systems are only a small fragment of that whole. It doesn't take a great mind to realize that fighting is only part of the whole, both within traditional Chinese thought and within most individuals.

Saying that one can only understand the universe and all it has to offer by first developing fighting skills is as false as saying that focusing on fighting skills will prevent one from understanding the nature of things.

In the end it seems to me that this thread is about how one perceives the world, and we all perceive it differently. While Miro may be guilty of proselytizing his world view, I don't feel the need to rush to defend my world view as a reaction to his post.

To each their own.

I believe that those who rush to criticize him for his post also do their own far share of proselytizing, perhaps that is what triggers such a visceral response in them.

That's my take on it.