"B.K. Frantzis" or "Mantak Chia" system recommendation?

[Interloper]

Thanks for that info, D_Glenn, particularly about the sciatic nerve and potential effects of force-winding from the legs. I'll look into it further. Thusfar, the older guys I've seen or met who utilize winding from the legs to drive the waist, have no discernable problems with sciatica or similar issues, but it could be the way they practice their winding, and also how they position themselves or re-absorb force when striking.

[escrima]

Don't tuck your pelvis, don't turn the palms backward, leave your shoulders on the side of your body where they belong, breath into the chest as well.

Interesting, your advice contradicts everything I was taught in my BKF basics (ok maybe not everything) and at first I was wondering if you were trying to be funny. Are you? I have not personally studied with BKF, so all that I know is second hand and I am open to hearing and trying out what others recommend if I see possible value in it.

A few questions for you in response to you comment but I would appreciate anyone's two cents:

"Don't tuck you pelvis" what do you mean by this and why not? I might be talking about something different, but for me rotating my pelvis backwards has provided many benfits in my martial applications and in learning to move more efficiently whether in FMA applications, weapons sparing or in stand up judo applications. In laymanese, I would say that "tucking my pelvis" in helped me learn how to stack my vertebra in a way that had me move with less effort and with more ease and balance.

It also matches similar exercises I have been exposed to from Feldenkrais and Rolf practitioners. I learned more subtle concepts from students of BKF stuff: like relaxing the sacrum and having that relax and drop verses forcing it by moving the entire pelvis (and I would agree that someone just focusing on the pelvis as a whole would miss this and the pronounced difference in kinesthetic feel). I've heard there are other benefits as well but I am not aware or skilled enough to appreciate this yet. It is also aligned with my understanding of Egoscue's understanding of how the hips/pelvis should be in relation to the rest of the body. On the otherhand, I did have a free physical assessment at a health club here and the guy doing the assessment thought my hips were over rotated to the back...

Is there something else you do instead of dropping your tailbone or do you see some beneficial reason to have a "monkey tail" aka the big ole protruding butt with the corresponding pronounced curvature of the lumbar vertebrae?

"don't turn you palms backward" this one I can get more. If I am standing (wuji) and relaxed, I have a different quality of softness in my shoulders when my palms are facing my body than when when they face backwards. What do you see as the benefits to standing with them facing your body verses facing back? What do you see as the drawbacks to having them face back? I figure in movement this is a whole different thing, but for standing I figure there would be benefits and draw backs to both positions. I know that with my hands facing my body, my pectorals and deltoids are softer at the get go but then the scapula area also feels collapsed to me. With my hands facing back there is more tension in my deltoid and pectorals, that I have to consciously have to relax but my scapula feel open and I get an experience of energy having an easier pathway to flow. What have other folks experienced (me I am testing this out as I am I writing but training is in facing my hands to the back)?

"leave your shoulders on the side of your body where they belong" This one has me perplexed. I don't know what this means. I am also unclear what people mean by slumped shoulders... Maybe when I started learning IMA I already had this one corrected from previous MA training?

"breath into the chest as well" This one I was taught to do. I was taught to learn how to do abdominal and lower back breathing but that my chest should be involved as well. I was told there were more advance breathing practices and that for now I should breathing normally but to make sure I did not limit myself to chest breathing.

Interestingly the guy I am training with now here in the Philippines does not want my chest to move at all and that the only movement should come from my stomach and lower back. Thanks in advance to your responses.

[escrima]

Thanks for that info, D_Glenn, particularly about the sciatic nerve and potential effects of force-winding from the legs. I'll look into it further. Thusfar, the older guys I've seen or met who utilize winding from the legs to drive the waist, have no discernable problems with sciatica or similar issues, but it could be the way they practice their winding, and also how they position themselves or re-absorb force when striking, as opposed to the way Chia does.

I while back I had girlfriend who was a professional salsa dancer. Salsa (at least NY & LA style) is one of those dances that does not work out the body bi-laterally. Long story short she would go to a chiropractor a couple times a month for adjustments.

I had here take up a circle walking class that Maiji Soderjolm (sp?) was teaching in Oakland, CA with me. it was only two mornings a week for a month. During that time, she hadn't gone to her chiropractor. When she returned her chiropractor was surprised by how aligned her body had remained since her last adjustment. My ex-noticed the difference in her body and also appreciated how the practice gave her an opportunity to "get deeper" into her body. When her chiropracter asked her what she had been doing different and my ex told her bagua, the chiropractor laughed because it turns out her dad has been a practitioner for over a decade and he had been telling her about the benefits.

Since this was a beginning class, the only real focus was on consciousness in movement. Particularly the relationship of the pelvis to the leg during stepping and in weight transfer so we did develop some awareness of how the femur would rotate and the movement of fascia. If I remember correctly she was showing us stuff from the Gao style that she had learned from Luo De Xui. It was an eight lesson class designed to give foundation and health benefits.

[Buddy]

Elrik,
It is my opinion and my experience that to go against the body's natural design can be harmful. Maybe it is that it won't affect everyone as it has me. I also had very bad experiences with the Egoscue online work.
The spine has a natural curve in the lumbar. Why try to straighten it? I'm much in agreement with Tim Cartmell here. The palms naturally face the sides of the body. To rotate them backwards goes against the natural design. It causes the shoulders to move forward. A lot of Kumar's people have the beginnings of kyphosis because the "sink their chests". Sink the chest and raise the back is often misunderstood, IMO.
Take a yoga pose like tadasana, it goes against a lot of what Bruce talks about. But I think it is a more accurate portrayal of proper structure.

Buddy

[GrahamB]

Buddy,

I'm curious about why you recommend to breathe into the chest? Are you saying don't breathe into the lower abdomen (by extending the diaphragm)? I thought that was actually our 'natural design' and makes you feel more relaxed?

Thanks,
G

[Buddy]

Graham,
No, I'm saying also breathe into the chest.

B

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Buddy]

Daniel,
The pleasure is mine. I agree with your reasoning and have said many of the same things re: one's sitting posture. As far as the palms go, my experience is that, combined with the misunderstanding of hxbb, it rolls folks shoulders forward. I've never met anyone with shoulder's "nests" issues. The holes of one's ears should align with the shoulders. Tis can look like what has been described as a military posture and it is often exaggerated to prove that point.
Another thing that has plagued me posturally is the complete relaxation of the stomach. It can lead to pot belly and further degradation of one's posture. The core needs to be strong. Tadasana helps with this along with proper head and spine alignment.


Thanks Shawn. I'm not certain I'm back yet.

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Interloper]

Elrik,
The spine has a natural curve in the lumbar. Why try to straighten it?

Buddy,
The natural lumbar curve is what prevents force from being transmittable from a contact point down to the ground, and from the ground up to an exit point. Think about how you straighten your wrist, not letting it bend up or down, when punching. If you let it stay slack so that it bends, then the force of punching will be dumped into that bend in the wrist and you'll sprain or break it.

Straightening the spine removes slack - and thus the little bends and niches where force can be dumped - so your body doesn't break into two out-of-alignment pieces with the accompanying loss of center when force is applied. A straightened spine without slack creates a clean ground path and is the vehicle on which force travels to be absorbed into your legs and the ground, giving you stable structure even when attacked, and to provide the path through which your own generated power travels to the exit point of your choice -- fists, feet, shoulders, chest, even head -- to attack your opponent. It's what unifies your body so that you move with power and stability.

And it's not unnatural if you do it without forcing it or wrenching it. There is a particular way to do it, manipulating the surrounding connective tissues, and it is done gently and without jerking or tugging, and it is trained until it becomes second nature and a comfortable, "natural" way in which to carry the body whether sitting, standing or lying down.

Without it, the other internal means of power generation are pretty much useless, like an engine with no vehicle around it to drive.

[C.J.Wang]

I'd go as far as saying that, from my past experiences meeting with practitioners from various systems with internal skills, the secret to internal power lies in the fact that the force is generated in ways that are "unnatural" to an average human being as the result of years of hard training to reprogram the body to move in those ways.

If you are moving your spine, pelvis, shoulder, waist, and hip in ways that are "natural" and intuitive to everyone, it really gives you no advantage over others.

[GrahamB]

Graham,
No, I'm saying also breathe into the chest.

B

Ah... I see - the way is now clear before me....

[GrahamB]

I'd go as far as saying that, from my past experiences meeting with practitioners from various systems with internal skills, the secret to internal power lies in the fact that the force is generated in ways that are "unnatural" to an average human being as the result of years of hard training to reprogram the body to move in those ways.

If you are moving your spine, pelvis, shoulder, waist, and hip in ways that are "natural" and intuitive to everyone, it really gives you no advantage over others.

Sudden thought flash - are human beings unique in the animal kingdom in being able to move their body in many fundamentally different ways to other members of the same species? For example - a fallow deer moves like a fallow deer, a cat moves like a cat, etc.... but people? We can consciously (or unconsciously) decide to move 'differently' to each other..?

[CaliG]

I'd go as far as saying that, from my past experiences meeting with practitioners from various systems with internal skills, the secret to internal power lies in the fact that the force is generated in ways that are "unnatural" to an average human being as the result of years of hard training to reprogram the body to move in those ways.

If you are moving your spine, pelvis, shoulder, waist, and hip in ways that are "natural" and intuitive to everyone, it really gives you no advantage over others.

The way I see it all great martial arts take what's natural and instictive to the body and put that into an intense training program to upgrade and refine that and then over years of training take it to a high level where few people go.

[C.J.Wang]

I'd go as far as saying that, from my past experiences meeting with practitioners from various systems with internal skills, the secret to internal power lies in the fact that the force is generated in ways that are "unnatural" to an average human being as the result of years of hard training to reprogram the body to move in those ways.

If you are moving your spine, pelvis, shoulder, waist, and hip in ways that are "natural" and intuitive to everyone, it really gives you no advantage over others.

The way I see it all great martial arts take what's natural and instictive to the body and put that into an intense training program to upgrade and refine that and then over years of training take it to a high level where few people go.

The "natural" and "instintive" way for someone without any training to throw a punch is, as seen in most street fights, to swing his arms from shoulder out violently and hoping he'd hit something. On the other hand, when a decent martial artist throws a punch, he knows how to utilize body mass and hip torque for a much more efficient punch with potential knock-out power. At a more advanced level, a master martial artist would be able to engage his fascia in combination with internal winding and acceleration for a 1-inch or "no-inch" punch so hard that could send whoever's on the receiving end to the hospital with a tap.

The first method is natural and instinctive, but the latter two aren't; they need to be taught and practiced diligently until the body adapts these unnatural ways of moving.

So in my opinion, great martial artists are those who have turned the unnatural into natural.