Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby RobP2 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:06 am

liokault wrote:
RobP2 wrote:
liokault wrote:This is just like 99% of TCC, in that its a sham.

I couldnt get past 1.40 in the clip Andy posted, its just stooges falling over for no real reason, just like most TCC clips. I have yet to see a convincing systema clip.


Well there are some opportunities coming up, for example Martin and Vlad are in London next year, or there are plenty of classes, come along and we'll make a clip :)


Feel free to just post one now and save the time.


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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Mello on Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:52 am

You didn't link to a video.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby RobP2 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:58 am

Mello wrote:You didn't link to a video.


It's my Youtube channel
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Mello on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:07 am

Right, thought you were trying to post something specific. My bad.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby RobP2 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:13 am

No probs!
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby yeniseri on Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:56 am

If the Russian guys have come to this defense intuitively - and/or through practice (or, indeed, from pinching other peeps' stuff) then good for them.


Just a guess but the Russians have been influences by the steppe people so over time they probably integrated wrestling concepts of Mongols, Kirghiz, etc into their own Systema (Sambo) so it makes sense that the movement concepts follow that line of derivation and action! It is finctional, it works so using what is useful and based on reality is the bomb!
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Ian on Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:15 pm

Daniel wrote:How long has Systema been around? How does it transfer information? Aren´t there any forms in Systema, simply because it´s so new? What will it look like in a hundred, two-three hundred year´s time?..


Hi Daniel!

I'm not the right person to ask. I haven't met Mikhail or Vlad, and my RMA teachers don't worry too much about lineage or names.

Information is transferred best in small groups with a lot of hands-on training, like any effective method.

We don't have forms, but there are 100+ solo and partner drills that create, refine, and test different attributes and components of the fight, resulting in a fighter's mind and body.

Who knows what's in store for anyone in the future! My current group is interesting for me because it's intellectually stimulating, challenging, and professional. That's not unique to RMA but can happen anywhere, right? :)
Last edited by Ian on Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Andy_S on Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:08 am

Rob:

RE: "It isn't Taiji"
I know and I made clear in my OP that he was a Systema guy. I was merely pointing out that the tactic AND the techniques he is using in the part of the clip referenced are, however, very, very similar to Taiji (as I have learned it).

And as stated in my response to Ian:
Sure, many Taiji people just don't do much in terms of live contact drills beyond PH. This is one of the modern art's many shortcomings.

I like Systema a great deal and am awed by the shear technical vocabulary and ability to change/ad lib in mid-flow that we see in the top Systema guys. In many ways, these guys represent the acme of applied MA. (And have said this a number of times on the board.)

Even so, Liaokault has a reasonable point (though I think he overstates it).

A lot of Systema demos have what in Aikido would be called a uke (ie a "receiver" rather than "opponent") who tends to immediately flow with the demonstrators attack or counter.

This method has both pros - the uke learns to go with force, learns to flow, learns to fall, etc - but some cons - do people who spend a lot of time on this kind of training get overly comfortable with an opponent moving in a certain direction,so losing familiarity with basic, old-fashioned resistance?
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby RobP2 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:12 am

Hi Andy

It's a fair question, Systema isn't a magic bullet and nees to be trained correctly. Getting good at a drill is not the same as getting good at real life

http://robpoyton.blogspot.com/2011/11/whats-point.html

As far as resistance goes - almost all the material the top guys put out is instructional, they are putting something across rather than demonstrating a fight. The uke thing doesn't really fly for me, it isn't as passive as the Japanese approach, as often the biggest lesson is being learnt by the partner, not the people watching. I guess that's something that's clearer if you work with VV and co.

Interms of working with the main teachers I've never heard anyone say "you can't do that". They may sometimes slow a person down to either clearly show something or if they are worried the person may get hurt. They are also happy to ramp things up to whatever level you want to work at, in fact some of the pressure training is based around that (what VV calls cracking the shell without damaging the inside)

This is the problem with resistance - when you are working with another person's tension, people can injure themselves. I've experienced it myself even in "friendly" sparring where the other person goesin hard and doesn't know how to deal with the force that comes back (another Taiji parralel?). So a lot of times people are being soft to protect themselves. Again it can be difficult to see that until you are in the situation

That's why I put up the link to my Youtube channel, there's a range of work across the board, from exercise and soft work to some of the pressure and resistance work. You won't see much in the way of sports-based sparring, as that is not the goal oof the work. We usually work goal-based or problem solving sparring drills to try and keep things in context. Safety is always a concern, balancing the two can be difficult, there's nothing tough about busting each other up for the sake of it.

Outside of training some of my guys are quite active, in one form or another and to a man they have not found real resistance or aggression a problem. Anecdotal I know, but that's the feedback that comes in

It's interesting to me that you have two guys in VV and MR who are, to many people, amongst the leading martial artists of their generation, who are completely accesible, who are totally open to any type of hands-on work you want to put to them and who have a wealth of practical and operational knowledge that they can and will share - yet some people won't go near them. They do challenge some so-called conventional MA thinking and most of all they will make you challenge your own views along with theirs, that's part of the fun :)
Last edited by RobP2 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby liokault on Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:14 am

RobP2 wrote: It's interesting to me that you have two guys in VV and MR who are, to many people, amongst the leading martial artists of their generation, who are completely accesible, who are totally open to any type of hands-on work you want to put to them and who have a wealth of practical and operational knowledge that they can and will share - yet some people won't go near them. They do challenge some so-called conventional MA thinking and most of all they will make you challenge your own views along with theirs, that's part of the fun :)


What would be more interesting is if these people (who 99% of MA'ists have no idea exist) walked into one of the many pro MMA gyms scattering in globe and announced that they are amongst the leading martial artists of their generation, then filmed the result.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby RobP2 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:48 am

Boreshido
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:58 am

liokault,

That might be almost as funny as taking top MMA fighters, giving them all of the appropriate equipment, and putting them into real operations scenarios and telling them to simply not get dead.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Daniel on Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:13 pm

LOL.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Andy_S on Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:30 am

Alternatively:
Take the top Systema peeps; drop them alone and unarmed among a bunch of old ladies and aging hippes in the park; see how long they survive.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby liokault on Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:37 am

Andy_S wrote:Alternatively:
Take the top Systema peeps; drop them alone and unarmed among a bunch of old ladies and aging hippes in the park; see how long they survive.


They would starve to death if none of the above didnt buy their product.
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