Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

[vagabond]

hey y'all, just thought i'd jump in to further cloud the waters.

now i have no experience past youtube re systema, but i wanted to speak up in defense of aikido. currently, the only person i know of to ever have successfully defended against a knife(also the only person i know to have been in a fight, w/ a knife involved, ever) was a blackbelt at my old aikido dojo, and he did so without catching a single scratch, using one of the techiques we learned as white belts, and then never stopped practicing. it was an attempted mugging. was it an attempted mugging by a phillipino weapons master? i didn't think to ask at the time.

bodywork, i know there is some really awful aikido out there, but to me the bit you said about centerline, and retaining balance and a full structure, sounded pretty familiar. probably coincidence, and more to do with words than method, but i know that i value the training i did in aikido for the skill i took away. i feel i learned quite a bit about timing, distancing and footwork, connectivity and fullness of structure etc. i do know that these days a lot of folks with grappling backgrounds find me real hard to tap. and in my dojo once we got past yellowbelts we started training against more realistic type stuff, like boxing combos and such. good jujutsu/real IP? babies and bathwater?

the thing i see about systema that makes me nervous pertains to the old thing about how you can't walk backwards faster than your opponent can walk forwards. they seem to do a lot of retreating, while gumbying and twisting out of the path of their attacker. how quickly and precicesly can one really do that? under pressure? while scared, hopped up on adrenaline, after being kicked in the head? where lies the line between training from failure, and training for failure? rhetorical question of course, and one which there are a bazillion people more qualified to answer than me. thanks for you patience i'll shut up now!

[Chris McKinley]

Oh, I'm all for drills, don't get me wrong. In fact, my point has nothing to do with drills, either pro or con. I'm saying that in the vast majority of cases, it's both unnecessary and distracting from the intended learning to get too focused on the precise contact points to the degree of having to specify them in order to do the work effectively. That applies equally whether one is working drills or freestyle application.

[Bodywork]

hey y'all, just thought i'd jump in to further cloud the waters.
bodywork, i know there is some really awful aikido out there, but to me the bit you said about centerline, and retaining balance and a full structure, sounded pretty familiar. probably coincidence, and more to do with words than method, but i know that i value the training i did in aikido for the skill i took away. i feel i learned quite a bit about timing, distancing and footwork, connectivity and fullness of structure etc. i do know that these days a lot of folks with grappling backgrounds find me real hard to tap. and in my dojo once we got past yellowbelts we started training against more realistic type stuff, like boxing combos and such. good jujutsu/real IP? babies and bathwater?

I am on the mats teaching Shihan and an array of 4 to 5 to 6th Dans in aikido worldwide. When I find one who is connected...I will let you know.
I have never read, seen or felt anyone in the art who understands structure and centerline. And as yet, after meeting me and having me show them how to do it, no one, not one, disagrees with me, instead they choose to train it. Please realize that many of these people are now friends of mine, but I do not bullshit, either way, glossing over, or exagerating. It is what it is.

the thing i see about systema that makes me nervous pertains to the old thing about how you can't walk backwards faster than your opponent can walk forwards. they seem to do a lot of retreating, while gumbying and twisting out of the path of their attacker. how quickly and precicesly can one really do that? under pressure? while scared, hopped up on adrenaline, after being kicked in the head? where lies the line between training from failure, and training for failure? rhetorical question of course, and one which there are a bazillion people more qualified to answer than me. thanks for you patience i'll shut up now!

Well there are other considerations. I am not a fan of what Systema delivers for one on one fighting. I am a fan of what it does to someones mental state to relax under serious pressure (not not seen on video) and what it can do for a soldier in a combat theater. They have a winning forumula for "when the shit hits the fan do" moving in a pressured environment.
As I said though, one on one? No thanks.
Dan

[vagabond]

and if i could train with you, i would in a minute. i'd walk into your space wary of bullshit, hoping for and expecting good training, and doing my best to leave prior training notions behind. but as things stand right now, some of the more useful martial stuff i've come across has been in an aikido dojo, way more practical than so much of the choreography and posing i've seen in so called kung fu schools, or the wishful thinking i've seen in aikikai affiliated dojos. far, far from perfect, and i may well have been better served by a boxing gym, but not worthless

[Bodywork]

Oh, I'm all for drills, don't get me wrong. In fact, my point has nothing to do with drills, either pro or con. I'm saying that in the vast majority of cases, it's both unnecessary and distracting from the intended learning to get too focused on the precise contact points to the degree of having to specify them in order to do the work effectively. That applies equally whether one is working drills or freestyle application.

I don't get where you are coming form here Chris.
Successful throws and submissions have points and methods to consider. You are not going to submit people by untrained dumb luck right? And if you do not know what to do with an arm and have the thumb side down and the elbow turned...well.... good luck. Same thing if some dolt tries to trap a leg from the front side with the knee closed toward you. I think contact points and knowing what to do is a foundational requirement, If you don''t know how to set experienced guys up...you are going to be set up.
Drill, then everything flows at speed.

[johnwang]

precise contact points...

All TCMA throws will require "precise contact points" to be effective. Witout knowing "precise contact points", there will be no throws. For example, when you get your opponent's front leg, if you "press" on his back leg behind his knee, and use your shoulder to "strike" on his leading upper leg, he will be down. The proper contact points will give you the best leverage for your throw.

[GrahamB]

this whole thread make me lol

honestly, Kostic does some realy good work late in that clip, around 13 summtink, once the rabbits stop falling over.. his mma clips look ok for mma usage too...

do the weird basic exercises shown contribute to that level of skill?

Well that's precisely it, isn't it? Nail on the head.

I'm sure If people watched these Systema clps with an internal monologue that said "this is just a training drill not a real fight" rather than "we expect this to be how it would really go down" I'm sure most of these threads would be avoided

[Bodywork]

and if i could train with you, i would in a minute. i'd walk into your space wary of bullshit, hoping for and expecting good training, and doing my best to leave prior training notions behind. but as things stand right now, some of the more useful martial stuff i've come across has been in an aikido dojo, way more practical than so much of the choreography and posing i've seen in so called kung fu schools, or the wishful thinking i've seen in aikikai affiliated dojos. far, far from perfect, and i may well have been better served by a boxing gym, but not worthless

Well you switched topics on me.
1. I was talking about connection
2. You responded about connection
3. Then I said they are not connected
4. Then you started talking about martial art skills in aikido.
I didn't say all aikido sucks as a martial art. I said I have yet to find anyone in it who is connected and understands structure. Then again I have met very few people in any art, including the internal arts who are connected and understand structure. When it comes to the internal arts (except at master level guys) I am distinctly unimpressed

[Bodywork]

this whole thread make me lol

honestly, Kostic does some realy good work late in that clip, around 13 summtink, once the rabbits stop falling over.. his mma clips look ok for mma usage too...

do the weird basic exercises shown contribute to that level of skill?

Well that's precisely it, isn't it? Nail on the head.

I'm sure If people watched these Systema clps with an internal monologue that said "this is just a training drill not a real fight" rather than "we expect this to be how it would really go down" I'm sure most of these threads would be avoided

Graham
I don't have to guess, I know why they do things they do. I have been told by teachers pretty close to Vlad why they do what they do. Some of which I won't address here. I gave a fair review based on both their own explanations, their own expectations and deliverables with me one-on-one which failed, and went on to applaud them for its value in other more serious venues in which they shine.
My primary point to them is a failure in putting stuff out on youtube without explanations. Keeping in mind I am still not an overall fan of it as a martial system, I think I gave a fair handed assessment.

[Bodywork]

Another point which was brought up in a few seminars was is Systema internal. I found no evidence of good structure and connection or explanations of how to get there from anyone in the art. Their breath work training is an attempt to begin.

[vagabond]

Well you switched topics on me.
1. I was talking about connection
2. You responded about connection
3. Then I said they are not connected
4. Then you started talking about martial art skills in aikido.
I didn't say all aikido sucks as a martial art. I said I have yet to find anyone in it who is connected and understands structure. Then again I have met very few people in any art, including the internal arts who are connected and understand structure. When it comes to the internal arts (except at master level guys) I am distinctly unimpressed

eh you're right. bad rhetorical form. it frustrates me when people bag on aikido, as in my experience (at one particular dojo) its been more useful than 99.9% of what else i've seen outside of mma gyms. perhaps what i should have said is, a lot of what i know about structure i've learned in aikido, in kokyu dosa, drilling only the draw in kokyu nage, etc. my experience was kind of like i was stringing my limbs onto my body, one joint at a time. like prior to that they were marionette limbs, kinda dangly, and i learned to hold them with a sort of stretchy fullness, if it's alright to wax descriptive. systema videos i've seen seem to work on isolating and reintegrating body parts, if that makes sense, looks like potentially good stuff to me.

eta: don't know what you mean by structure, seem's a waste of time to discuss on the net. i only use the word intuitively.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Another point which was brought up in a few seminars was is Systema internal. I found no evidence of good structure and connection or explanations of how to get there from anyone in the art. Their breath work training is an attempt to begin.

I have limited contact with systema at a two day seminar this year. I would have to mostly agree. The guy teaching was able to hit with some internal power but this was not done in context. Structure was discussed by some of the more experienced guys but there was several cases where I was in a pretty strong position and what was pointed at as a weak point in my structure was not weak. When we did some kicking drills where one person would kick and the other would redirect the kick and extend the kicker and then move to a take down one of the more experienced guys couldn't make it work against me when I was kicking. I had to intentionally kick in a way that goes against everything I have been taught so he could make his stuff work. When we did some redirection of strikes into take downs and throws people were going down with very sloppy throws on my part. Sloppy enough that they wouldn't work on anyone I train with regularly. They were going down with so little pressure I actually didn't have realistic feedback.

Despite those criticisms I think there is a lot of valuable stuff in systema and I plan on eventually making it to see Vlad.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
They would starve to death if none of the above didnt buy their product.
SNIP

No.

First, they would snare, field-cook and eat the squirrels, rabbits and small birds in the park.

Later, dogs off the leash would be trapped, taken and dined upon.

After a few weeks of this, small children in the neighbourhood would start to disappear and something rather like roasting pork would be smelt wafting across the park...

[Andy_S]

Dan:

SNIP
A better approach since your are trying to draw comparison to ICMA; is to use the center line as the support and you evade / invade at the same time, that way you find his back door and he falls into your door opening and you retain all power shoices, drawing and issuing.
SNIP

If you could stop speaking Japanese and re-write the above in plain English I'd appreciate it.

"Evade/invade at the same time" is fine - evade/yield with upper body as your leg steps forward is the most basic form of tactical movement in Chen Taiji, and a very similar tactic is used in Bagua - but the rest made no sense to me.

[Chris McKinley]

Dan,

Sorry, I got busy yesterday and didn't see your post with the thread having moved on. Being limited to iPhone right now kinda blows.

Successful throws and submissions have points and methods to consider. You are not going to submit people by untrained dumb luck right?

You're right, and just like with certain chokes and throws, submissions sometimes have more precise technical requirements of that very sort. However, submissions are of course generally a function of grappling. Grappling itself is but one slice of the pie, and is a much smaller slice for actual combat than it is for sport fighting contexts. In fact for actual combat, submissions as a class of tactic are almost utterly irrelevant except to law enforcement officers who are sometimes required to restrain an individual for purposes of arrest.

Perhaps it might be helpful for each and all of us to clarify to which context we are referring since they can have very different needs and requirements.