Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:37 am

Omar,

That was an extremely cogent take on it, IMO. It's why I was asking for further clarification and why I still claim it's possible that Dan and I agree entirely. I think it could very well be a case of arguing valid points past one another. Ive found through experience that working with various contact points (even "bad" ones) on purpose leads one to an appreciation for and understanding of them that is both experience-based and intuitive, rather than having to memorize an associated list of points for each and every choke, lock or throw, so I'm a huge fan of working material that way.
As an internal guy, and someone who has more than a passing interest in the actualities of real combat, I'm also a big fan of being able to work from any contact point whatsoever. The latter requires the same time spent to develop it to unconscious competence as working precise contact points does, so I'm by no means putting it forth as a shortcut. Anything one does takes time spent to do it in a skillful way.

Both skill sets are valid, and I have spent time developing them each in both myself and people I've trained. The take-home portion of my point is that if you want to survive real violent assaults outside of a training hall or sport ring, you damn well better have a healthy dose of the latter, and a recognition of the fact that, regardless of what/how you choose to train, you simply don't get the luxury of choosing or even unconsciously determining precise contact points in a real violent assault. Precision training is a case of overlearning toward a Platonic ideal, and is extremely valuable as such. As the saying goes, "Nice work if you can get it."
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:46 pm

Chris McKinley wrote: you simply don't get the luxury of choosing or even unconsciously determining precise contact points in a real violent assault.

You still need to know the PRO and CON of each contact points. If you get contact point A and you try to use moves that requires contact point B, you may get yourself into trouble. For example, if you

- grab on your opponent's wrist and move in, your opponent may strike his elbow at your chest (don't enter, or if you want to enter, watch his elbow).
- block on his forearm, your opponent may borrow your force and give you a hook punch at your head (don't enter. or if you want to enter, watch his hook punch).
- press on your opponent's elbow joint, you are safe to move in (enter).
- press on your opponent's upper arm, you are also safe to move in (enter).

Trying to ignore the "outer gate - wrist", "middle gate - elbow", and "inner gate - shoulder" concept, you may have to take unnecessary risk that's what I'm trying to say.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Defense: Continuing, not Stopping, the Opponent's Momentum

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:31 pm

You still need to know the PRO and CON of each contact points.


Sure, John, and that's why I wrote "Ive found through experience that working with various contact points (even "bad" ones) on purpose leads one to an appreciation for and understanding of them that is both experience-based and intuitive, rather than having to memorize an associated list of points for each and every choke, lock or throw, so I'm a huge fan of working material that way."

And also, "Precision training is a case of overlearning toward a Platonic ideal, and is extremely valuable as such."

That still doesn't change my point about not getting to choose and still needing other skills though.
Chris McKinley

 

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