Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

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Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Far7anR on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:05 am

Hi. I am interested in purchasing these DVDs and am wondering if anyone can comment on the quality of them? I was told that although the material is interesting but that the demonstrations were a bit hard to learn form - "relaxed and casual without attention to fine detail" compared to the animal system DVDs. Any opinions?
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby onyomi on Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:07 pm

I would agree with that assessment. Imagine an old guy standing around talking a lot and then occasionally doing a few moves quickly. Maybe interesting if you are already an experienced Yin Style practitioner, but a beginner isn't going to learn much from it. If you're interested in that Xie Peiqi-He Jinbao system just buy one of the animal DVD sets. They are shot from lots of angles with a lot of explanation, slo-mo, etc. Much more possible for a beginner to learn from.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Bob on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:25 am

I have found the dvds very useful as I do all of ones put out by Xie-Peiqi - He Jinbao as they reinforce many of the things I have already learned and only re-confirm the usefulness of my practice--they also provide insight to a bigger picture of bagua and how the health and fighting do not have to be an either/or proposition. [my lineage is Yin Fu -> Gong Bao Tian -> Liu Yun Qiao -> Tony Yang].

I agree with what they others are saying unless you like to buy dvds simply to get a broader and more expansive view of what is being taught as bagua and in particular, Yin Fu bagua. [this is my primary motivation for purchasing dvds]
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby lazyboxer on Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:30 am

onyomi wrote:...Imagine an old guy standing around talking a lot and then occasionally doing a few moves quickly.


That doesn't really describe it accurately. He does as much moving as talking, and shows lots of practical applications of the principles.

It isn't meant as a primer, so he doesn't break things down as much as you'd get from a learning DVD. But he's a very cool 'old guy', moves fast and well (he's over 80!), and has a good sense of humour. I like the way he keeps apologizing for not being able to show the methods properly because he doesn't want to lose his 'assistant' (AKA crash test dummy). :D

Anyone with an interest in baguazhang and a bit of background would enjoy and benefit from it, IMO.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Tom on Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:11 am

I agree with LB's assessment. With respect to the comment that Liu's penetrating palms set doesn't contain much detail, the Xie Peiqi--He Jinbao animal system DVDs produced by ATS are almost suffocating in their detail (Andrew Nugent-Head's translation is superb, though). The DVDs put out by HJB today through yinstylebaguazhang.com also suffer at times from lack of detail and context, in the empty hand sets.

My own take is that the Penetrating Palms set is worth studying in tandem with the older animal system DVDs. I like what Liu extracted from Xie's teaching to emphasize. It is much more manageable than the huge multiverse of shenfa, zhuanzhang, isometric work, solo drills and pair play that was only partially documented by the most comprehensive attempt at providing a video record of a baguazhang system produced to date. But the XPQ/HJB material lets you see the source material that Liu extracted from and synthesized in much greater detail.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:19 pm

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Far7anR on Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:38 pm

Just out of curiosity, which animal did Gong Baotian train in? Does his baguazhang teach that the arms should be as soft as a rope, too, or did his bagua have the "tautness" of the Xie Peiqi lineage? I've always wanted to learn Gong Baotian linage baguazhang...
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby lazyboxer on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:20 pm

D_Glenn wrote:.
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Far7anR wrote:Just out of curiosity, which animal did Gong Baotian train in? Does his baguazhang teach that the arms should be as soft as a rope, too, or did his bagua have the "tautness" of the Xie Peiqi lineage? I've always wanted to learn Gong Baotian linage baguazhang...
.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Tom on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:53 pm

lazyboxer wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:.
.
Far7anR wrote:Just out of curiosity, which animal did Gong Baotian train in? Does his baguazhang teach that the arms should be as soft as a rope, too, or did his bagua have the "tautness" of the Xie Peiqi lineage? I've always wanted to learn Gong Baotian linage baguazhang...
.


Elegantly put, LB.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby yusuf on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:11 pm

i'll play

lazyboxer wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:The 8th Trigram returns to the source and allows the hand first movements of penetrating palms to be integrated with the whole body shen fa..

or as HJB puts it, just smack them really effin hard..
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Far7anR wrote:Just out of curiosity, which animal did Gong Baotian train in? Does his baguazhang teach that the arms should be as soft as a rope, too, or did his bagua have the "tautness" of the Xie Peiqi lineage? I've always wanted to learn Gong Baotian linage baguazhang...
.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby lazyboxer on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:38 pm

Hmm..this thread got legs
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Far7anR on Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Yeah I'm not sure why he erased his post.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Climb-up on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:21 am

Did you end up getting it?
Sorry this is resurrecting an old thread, but I found it looking for more information on these videos after seeing the below on YouTube.
This looks awesome! Is it representative of the videos?
I love it!
[youtube] https://youtu.be/OQl9MrGVKwY[/youtube]
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby Far7anR on Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:14 pm

Climb-up wrote:Did you end up getting it?
Sorry this is resurrecting an old thread, but I found it looking for more information on these videos after seeing the below on YouTube.
This looks awesome! Is it representative of the videos?
I love it!
[youtube] https://youtu.be/OQl9MrGVKwY[/youtube]



How bizarre. Today I remembered about Yin Bagua and was looking up videos, remembered this DVD and looked up information on it, only to accidentally discover this thread and realize I had the same curiosity 8 years ago :o

And then I see that you just commented a few hours ago, haha.

Unfortunately, I did not buy the DVD in the end, and I probably still will not. I would suggest the Lion DVD as a first step. I do Wing Chun and Taiji these days, but I am going to slowly do some Bagua as life permits.
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Re: Liu Shichang - Penetrating Palms of Yin Style Bagua

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:39 am

On the difference between the Penetrating palms (pp) and the 8 Animal Systems, it’s almost a night and day difference of stepping and body method, because the forms of the Animal’s stepping patterns are on the points of the “9 palaces” (the 4 corners of a square, 4 midpoints on the sides of the square, and the point in the center of the square). While the forms of PP weave in between those points and use a type of stepping that sort of squeezes in between them.

In the Yin Style tradition, the grand scheme, or the ideal for learning it was that the PP was taught to everyone new into the school. It is Orthodox. If a student proved themselves trustworthy, then they would be taught the unorthodox Animal Systems. Then on their own they would learn to merge the Animals back into the PP.
The PP were the only thing that was allowed to be practiced in public. And they would actually go so far as to purposely go to a park and practice it. So that other people would train to attack it, but if they tried to fight a Yin style Bagua person, they would actually encounter an entirely different martial art in the Animals, and be ill-prepared.

Liu Shichang only learned the lion, dragon and Phoenix, so that’s what he had merged back into the PP. It’s cool, if you know what you know what’s an animal and what’s from the PP.

He Jinbao is focused on teaching the Unorthodox Animals because there’s no need for that level of subterfuge in this day and age, and because the Body Method of the PP is so limited, and therefore the techniques are limited. It’s also similar to other Chinese styles, where the Animal systems are not really similar. So it’s a better self defense and cultural contribution to the whole of the Chinese Martial Arts.


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