So what exactly is Jibengong anyways?

[Robert Young]

Lastly, to contradict what Robert Young posted above - although the character 气 "qi" may mean breath, air, atmosphere (in the sense of the atmosphere of a place) or even attitude, in a martial arts context it is not tied to breath control or breathing techniques. That is more a medical or meditative concept of qi and qigong.

That is where your definition is different from mine. We practice several sets of QiGong, But, we don't do medical or meditative concept of Qigong. Simply said, we don't do meditation. For us, Qi means air, breath, QiGong is breathing exercise with body movement, pure and simple. Here, We means LF lineage. Other CMA systems may do meditation, but we don't. And, I can think of several other systems that don't do meditation. Here, you are trying to use western mindset to apply to Chinese culture.

This is another east meet west situation. Western science starts up with definition. Chinese did not. Science were introduced to Chines only last couple of centuries. (There are people came to China a little earlier with western science, but only to the loyalty.) CMA were already well developed several centuries before that.

Personally, I believe it is good to have a agreeable terminology for everything we do. But unfortunately, CMA did not work that way, and still doesn't. It did not evolved that way, it was not passed down that way. Different systems have different terms even for the same things. I grew up in a Taiwan where government adopting US education (western) system. I always thought everything should have a clear definition just like you or everyone here with scientific mindset. But, when I worked really closed with my teacher and my LF uncles, problems occurred. The reason was that they (my teacher and my LF uncles) don't think that way. They have no scientific mindset. They only care if the things (CMA) they practice work or not. They, even my GM Han or my PM GM Wong, were not educated with western science. Most of them were not highly educated, a high school education in war time was considered high education.

The conflict of learning CMA for me, using western scientific mindset to apply CMA, was a struggle and problematic, at least so far. And, it was not just me, everyone in my generation in Taiwan who wanted to learn CMA or anything related to our old culture activities has to go through it. We have to tried really hard to understand how our teachers processed their CMA knowledge, because the way we and our teachers' processes are not the same. There is no way I can change the ways they think or their behaviors, I have to learn to cope and understand them better. And, I'm a native Chinese grew up in Taiwan had to adjust myself because of different education background. Maybe in the near future, when east and west merge better, we can have easier ways to understand each others so CMA can be spread easier and faster across.

[WongYing]

Based on the video above titled hmmmm for jibengung, while the person may be practising some what some would call jibengung type exercises from what I have learned from ken fish and gini lau - teachers of two entirely separate systems, I would say the performer does not or has not learned preliminary level jibengung.

The building blocks have not been developed or learned by the above performer, the devil is in the details

[nicklas]

I think its good that Dr. Fish, has put a focus on these exercises. And i kind of enjoy the discussions around them, even if most of the discussion has been a guessing games, but i hope there will be more constructive discussion in the future.

English is not my first language and im not a linguist, so dont be to harsh on me, but here we go....

Even thou i speak chinese, have knowledge about the CMA cultural background and chinese exercises, I dont agree to the terminology, for me JiBenGong is stretch kicks, hip spins and stance work, or bagua circle walking and so on.. that what all my teachers had called JiBenGong. When they say, lets do some JiBenGong they dont mean those special exercises, they mean what you calles JiBenDongZou. I never heard a special term for the "supportive exercises that builds the foundation of the martial body". When i have learned these kind of exercises described, i have been taken a side, showen a couple of exercises, told to go home and practice on them and come back and show how they have improved my wushu.

I think you are correct when you analyse the terms. Gong is a term that is hard to translate to a western language. (mandarintools.com: 功 gōng - merit; achievement; result; service; accomplishment, google translate: 功 - Power, merit, achievement, meritorious service, accomplishment, result, exploit, service)
So the basic moves should be JiBen -DongZou, not -Gong. But thats not really how the term is used so its kind of pointless to redefine the term here on a internet forum.

On the other hand.... In ChangQuan jibengong, there is not much that is really basic martial moves, stretch kicks, hip turns, low stance work are exercises to build a strong flexible marital body, and yes the devil is in the details.

As i wrote before i think that this "jiBenGong" are more a focus and attitude towards the exercises then a secrete training regime, its like a secret hidden in plain sight. One of my teachers even use to say: "There is no secrets in martial arts. I can tell everything to 100 students and im glad 1 truly understand, why should i have secrets?"

[BaguaKicksAss]

Based on the video above titled hmmmm for jibengung, while the person may be practising some what some would call jibengung type exercises from what I have learned from ken fish and gini lau - teachers of two entirely separate systems, I would say the performer does not or has not learned preliminary level jibengung.

The building blocks have not been developed or learned by the above performer, the devil is in the details

This makes a LOT of sense .

BKA

[kenneth fish]

Robert:
As some on this board know, I too spent most of my formative years in Taiwan (I went to a private Chinese high school in Taipei and later medical school in Taichung). Language was never a barrier. Yes, many teachers simply "taught" - they did not say "this is jibengong, these are jibendongzuo" - and many teachers taught by teaching basic movements, forms, and applications. Others were more structured in their approach. I found I had to do some of the same mental work I believe you did - learning something at face value then trying to analyze it and break it down to its components. When this was the case, I always went back to the teacher with questions to try to understand the teachers concept of what it was he or she was teaching. I found, however, that the best teachers I worked with in Taiwan and China had very clear concepts, were structured, and taught along the lines that I laid out earlier (a lot of time put into the jibengong before going on to anything else.) These teachers also tended to be very clear on the terms that they used. From what I have seen this is particularly the hallmark of a true traditional Shaolin lineage.

This is not to say that this approach is strictly a Shaolin approach - as I said, martial actors and acrobats in Chinese opera are taught this way, and many of the older generation I spoke to when I was young emphasized the necessity for this kind of progression as well - that includes Xingyi teachers. More recently I have met several Xingyi teachers who still teach this way to some of their students. They are generally somewhat sorry to say that most students will not put up with that kind of training - only the serious ones. The ones who teach public groups end up separating their students into customers and real students. The second group has the privilege of working much harder.

[Robert Young]

I

Robert:
As some on this board know, I too spent most of my formative years in Taiwan (I went to a private Chinese high school in Taipei and later medical school in Taichung). .....

I totally understand where you came from. As I have said earlier, the term you used as "JiBengGong" is simply not how we use it. We use different term for each exercise. I know what you meant of "JiBenGong" and I believe you have practice very traditional CMA, so am I. And yet, here we have difference. Someone who practice traditional southern CMA systems in Taiwan will have their own term to describe that. That is another difference. I also believe those exercises are important too. But it is the term that is confusing. I did not say it is wrong.

As language goes, I believe you Chinese is good for learning CMA, and language itself is not the problem. So am I, after all I'm a Chinese. The problem is how it was used and how we interpreted it. Every teacher has their own expressions or ways of teaching. I have spent several years to understand my teacher's wording and I was with him almost everyday back then. Most of my LF brothers still have lot of misunderstanding of what my teacher's saying. And many of them have studied for 30+ years. I found this situation in my LF uncles' teaching also. This does not mean my teacher was not clear or precise. He was. In many situation, he was too clear and precise, students heard but not listened because the words came out of my teacher were too simple and obvious, nothing sophisticated as they would like to hear hence they ignore it. Some are simply did not want to put up the training like you said. And, most of all, most students just wanted to "know" but not "practice". I believe other teachers will have similar problem with their students too. Language difference will make it more difficult above all these.

[kenneth fish]

Robert Young brings up an interesting point - the difference in how Chinese traditionally looked at the world, and how "Westernized" Chinese look at the world - an ongoing process.

Although the Chinese can lay claim to high levels of technical and basic scientific achievement prior to the West's industrial revolution, the "scientific mindset" did not really exist - by which I mean a kind of intellectual training by which natural phenomena are systematically examined and tested. Still, the methods of Chinese forensics, chemistry, engineering, astronomy, and metallurgy have much in common with modern methods.

Traditional Chinese thought placed significant emphasis on classification, organization, and the naming of things - there are entire schools of thought in this regard. In Chinese medicine there are entire treatises that discuss/argue the classification and proper terminology for specific disease entities. In Chinese martial arts there is some degree of agreement on terms as well - particularly in the Shaolin traditions, but across the arts as well (although this is less the case with respect to martial arts tied to mystic traditions, such as Daoism).

With that in mind I am have attempted to classify, broadly and generally, the different types of jibengong (not jibendongzuo, although some could probably fall into the categories below as well):

Strength: Jibengong that develop strength in: Small muscles, large muscles, stabilizers, strength within a limited range of motion across a single joint, strength through a large range of motion involving several joints.

Stability: Exercises that build stability for stancework, , stepping, gripping, and balance

Balance: exercises that teach balance on two feet on a narrow base, exercises that teach balance on a single point, exercises that develop whole body balance (for example balancing laying on ones back on a suspended length of rope)

Plyometric strength: Exercises that train explosive movement and/or ballistic, dynamic, movements. Exercises that develop the ability to jump.

Speed: Exercises that develop speed in stepping, turning, kicking and punching (although the exercises may not direct employ kicking or punching)

Range of motion: Exercises that increase functional range of motion (not stretching)

Penetration and force: Exercises that develop the foundation for striking power, penetration, and focus

Multiple Axis exercises: Exercises that teach awareness of and movement around various axis and lines of motion (these are not stepping or similar movement drills - they are mostly standing in place)

The above tend to be single movement, generally of limited range, may or may not employ equipment such as weights, hammers, spears, jars, and specialty devices.

There is one last issue that we have touched on before - some exercises may be publicly taught - but without the "key" idea of what to look for at each level of training and how to train them, one doesn't get the benefit . In other words, the answers to the key questions "what should this feel like? How do I know if I am doing this right? What is the result of the exercise? Usually this last question is answered first - the teacher demonstrates something, then shows the exercise needed to develop the strength etc for the action demonstrated.

[Robert Young]

Robert Young brings up an interesting point - the difference in how Chinese traditionally looked at the world, and how "Westernized" Chinese look at the world - an ongoing process.

Although the Chinese can lay claim to high levels of technical and basic scientific achievement prior to the West's industrial revolution, the "scientific mindset" did not really exist - by which I mean a kind of intellectual training by which natural phenomena are systematically examined and tested. Still, the methods of Chinese forensics, chemistry, engineering, astronomy, and metallurgy have much in common with modern methods.

Traditional Chinese thought placed significant emphasis on classification, organization, and the naming of things - there are entire schools of thought in this regard. In Chinese medicine there are entire treatises that discuss/argue the classification and proper terminology for specific disease entities. In Chinese martial arts there is some degree of agreement on terms as well - particularly in the Shaolin traditions, but across the arts as well (although this is less the case with respect to martial arts tied to mystic traditions, such as Daoism).

With that in mind I am have attempted to classify, broadly and generally, the different types of jibengong (not jibendongzuo, although some could probably fall into the categories below as well):

Strength: Jibengong that develop strength in: Small muscles, large muscles, stabilizers, strength within a limited range of motion across a single joint, strength through a large range of motion involving several joints.

Stability: Exercises that build stability for stancework, , stepping, gripping, and balance

Balance: exercises that teach balance on two feet on a narrow base, exercises that teach balance on a single point, exercises that develop whole body balance (for example balancing laying on ones back on a suspended length of rope)

Plyometric strength: Exercises that train explosive movement and/or ballistic, dynamic, movements. Exercises that develop the ability to jump.

Speed: Exercises that develop speed in stepping, turning, kicking and punching (although the exercises may not direct employ kicking or punching)

Range of motion: Exercises that increase functional range of motion (not stretching)

Penetration and force: Exercises that develop the foundation for striking power, penetration, and focus

Multiple Axis exercises: Exercises that teach awareness of and movement around various axis and lines of motion (these are not stepping or similar movement drills - they are mostly standing in place)

The above tend to be single movement, generally of limited range, may or may not employ equipment such as weights, hammers, spears, jars, and specialty devices.

There is one last issue that we have touched on before - some exercises may be publicly taught - but without the "key" idea of what to look for at each level of training and how to train them, one doesn't get the benefit . In other words, the answers to the key questions "what should this feel like? How do I know if I am doing this right? What is the result of the exercise? Usually this last question is answered first - the teacher demonstrates something, then shows the exercise needed to develop the strength etc for the action demonstrated.

There you go. I think this is much more clear. And it is a very good start.

I'll try my limited thought of your exercises. They are the physical exercises that target for particular purposes that help, supplement, or train certain physical ability other than normal Basic CMA trainings (Ji Beng Dong Zuo training like punches, kicks, stances). They may not specifically target for martial arts training, but they improvement our martial art ability as the result.

I like your last issue. My thinking from seeing your last issue is: "That is why we need good teacher".

[kenneth fish]

Robert Young said:

"I'll try my limited thought of your exercises. They are the physical exercises that target for particular purposes that help, supplement, or train certain physical ability other than normal Basic CMA trainings (Ji Beng Dong Zuo training like punches, kicks, stances). They may not specifically target for martial arts training, but they improvement our martial art ability as the result."

Exactly.

It also occurred to me that when I was learning, these were what one had to learn to get "in the door". If you could not take the training, and by doing so demonstrate your commitment, you did not get any further. Now (and since Chinese martial arts have become a much more public endeavor) the jibengong (or the details and keys to training them) are taught as "finishing school", if they are taught at all.

[Robert Young]

It also occurred to me that when I was learning, these were what one had to learn to get "in the door". If you could not take the training, and by doing so demonstrate your commitment, you did not get any further.

This bring me some memories back. My teacher was similar to this and then some.

Even for me, an officially indoor student following my teacher assist teaching for many years, if I learn something new and did not practice enough and show no progress in my teacher's eyes, he would not continue teach me new things. Sometimes, he would wait for months till I was ready for adding new moves. Oh, I miss him now.

[kenneth fish]

My teachers mostly taught this way. I know how you feel - I find myself thinking of my teachers often - and frequently I will suddenly understand something that was shown to me 30 or 40 years ago - and my appreciation for my teacher is even deeper.

[johnwang]

This is a Jibengong that can be used to train rooting, arm strength, and waist strength. Since this article does use the term Jibengong.

[yusuf]

With that in mind I am have attempted to classify, broadly and generally, the different types of jibengong (not jibendongzuo, although some could probably fall into the categories below as well):

Strength: Jibengong that develop strength in: Small muscles, large muscles, stabilizers, strength within a limited range of motion across a single joint, strength through a large range of motion involving several joints.

Stability: Exercises that build stability for stancework, , stepping, gripping, and balance

Balance: exercises that teach balance on two feet on a narrow base, exercises that teach balance on a single point, exercises that develop whole body balance (for example balancing laying on ones back on a suspended length of rope)

Plyometric strength: Exercises that train explosive movement and/or ballistic, dynamic, movements. Exercises that develop the ability to jump.

Speed: Exercises that develop speed in stepping, turning, kicking and punching (although the exercises may not direct employ kicking or punching)

Range of motion: Exercises that increase functional range of motion (not stretching)

Penetration and force: Exercises that develop the foundation for striking power, penetration, and focus

Multiple Axis exercises: Exercises that teach awareness of and movement around various axis and lines of motion (these are not stepping or similar movement drills - they are mostly standing in place)

thank you for this ...