Utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

[Samoobramba]

What is the difference between cross-linked and single-sided "method"?
In my opinion when we have a "cross-linked" substantial/insubstantial relation we can generate higher speed (because of the body rotation) and also our balance is better.
Contrary when we have a single-sided substantial/insubstantial relation our speed is limited with the speed produced by the gravity acceleration (there is no mentionable body rotation) and our ballance is not optimal.
However in the chaotic fight we can't always choose how our weight and it relation to the hitting hand are related (it is mostly given to us).

[Bao]

In my opinion when we have a "cross-linked" substantial/insubstantial relation we can generate higher speed (because of the body rotation) and also our balance is better.
Contrary when we have a single-sided substantial/insubstantial relation our speed is limited with the speed produced by the gravity acceleration (there is no mentionable body rotation) and our ballance is not optimal.
However in the chaotic fight we can't always choose how our weight and it relation to the hitting hand are related (it is mostly given to us).

To always shift between sides according to cross-lining is a bad Idea. It is just too too slow. You need a versatile shenfa and know how to change fast between cross-linking/single side linking, substantial/insubstantial, stationary root/dynamic root/no root (when to temporarily loose root)/ hard and soft (for instance sometimes, if you stiff up, you can fool your opponent to stiff up as well).

Shen fa only has fixed rules when practicing with fixed rules. And when dealing with form, shen fa is often one-dimensional, focusing on only a few aspects of shen fa.

Doing the right thing at the right time is what matters when you fight. You have no time to worry about what aspects of your shen fa you use. If you practice long enough, your body will tell you what to do in what situation: how to maintain stability, when to change posture and from what position you will strike hardest according your opponents position. In real situations things get more complicated than this and you will have no time worrying about things like this. But your body will know by itself if you teach it well.

[Bodywork]

I find cross line body work to be exceedingly fast, with the ground instantly avialable at all times, in rapid jabs, elbow, shoulder strikes that require zero wind-up. More importantly is the throw resistance aspect in Judo or jujutsu. The body winds and moves in a continual state of non-dedicated easy weight transfer that makes it tough to deal with when throwing or trying to throw them. For that matter even though I don't know push-hands from a hole in the wall, the body method has held me in good stead there as well.

I don't do forms and I don't care about anything that won't increase my game. I just don't give a shit unless it can knock someone senseless, throw them on their ass and let me submit them, or prevent them from doing it to me. The question of mobility -with this being too slow-I personally find to be without merit. The feet and body-mass move freer as there is no dedicated transfer of weight needing to take place side to side the way same-side weighted people move. And the interchange in weight and more importantly the joining of it is instantanious, then its spearates instantaniously again.
Overall it generates more mass times velocity. Same side simply cannot deliver that way. It....is slower and...its easier to be thrown. You move and carry your wieght like everyone else. If you're thinking this type of movement looks different or you can see it-without it being pointed out-you can't. But you will feel it and be able to understand it's different instantly. I have never...ever... met someone who could do it without a lot of training. Just the independance of waist movement from hips usually sees most Martial artists undone when they first try to move this way. Some stand there unable to even move- trying to force their body to undo what it has always done. It's different than normal movement.
I'd suggest getting your hands on people who train this way-and more importantly -do it well. Try throwing them, ask them to hit you fast with no wind ups. When you get up off the floor. you can either tell them "They hit and move too slow," or you can ask "How they are training that type of movement?" I'd bet on the later rather than the former.


The quote probably came from Chen Fake as quoted in "Taiji the pracitcal method" from Joe Chen. I never did taiji, but it's there. Oddly the way it is discussed in the book it is if this has always been a controversial topic with much misunderstanding / disagreement. I know in the majority of Japanese arts they consider it to mean the weight over both feet like others have mentioned here. Apparently the debate is nothing new in the Chinese arts either.

[C.J.Wang]

As a sidenote, Cheng Man-Ching considered the cross alignment principle crucial in understanding "xu" (insubstantial) and "shi"(substantial). He disclosed the principle in his book under a section dealing with materials that masters of the old held close to themselves.

[Bodywork]

As a sidenote, Cheng Man-Ching considered the cross alignment principle crucial in understanding "xu" (insubstantial) and "shi"(substantial). He disclosed the principle in his book under a section dealing with materials that masters of the old held close to themselves.

I don't know this Cheng guy from Adam but as a theory of substantial and insubstantial there is a very good reason for it. And there is a very good reason why it remains supported whether it is the former or the later. It makes no differences as the "power" remains and is hidden (but supported and becomes substantial instantly.
In jujutsu you absorb the throw attempt as you change and neutralize it and then wham! In a Japanese sense it cancels kuzushi at the onset and they dolt make tsukuri or Kake-you do...on them.

[Formosa Neijia]

I have never...ever... met someone who could do it without a lot of training. Just the independence of waist movement from hips usually sees most Martial artists undone when they first try to move this way. Some stand there unable to even move- trying to force their body to undo what it has always done.

[boldface added]

The problem with this is that not everyone sees it as necessary nor desirable. So if it's being used as some sort of measure of a person's understanding or skill, then it's problematic. Not all of us are doing the exact same thing.

Dave C.

[Buddy]

"The cross principle applies to Xingyi just fine.

Think about why some Xingyi masters emphasize the importance of the back hand."

This is the problem with the example of the stills of Luo. In my experience, He always talks about the importance of the opposite hand. It just isn't seen in stills.

[D_Glenn]

"The cross principle applies to Xingyi just fine.

Think about why some Xingyi masters emphasize the importance of the back hand."

This is the problem with the example of the stills of Luo. In my experience, He always talks about the importance of the opposite hand. It just isn't seen in stills.

Agreed.

In bagua the front hand is 60% the 'fu shou' (supporting) hand is 40%. The supporting hand contains an attack and it's always being trained in normal practice, it's only a slight change in the body to attack with - supporting hand 60, front hand 40 to make it the opposite across the body force,but not really a different skill as it's already in the body.

[cloudz]

As Dave said, you can do most xingyi/bagua techniques on either side (arms and legs same, or arms and legs different). It does seem to me that the "same" (as opposed to "crossed") versions seem to be default, though, in general.

Yeah, thinking about this stuff in terms of shun bu (same side) and au bu (opposite side) powers really clear it up. Typical shun bu move would be GST -- grasp bird's tail -- and typical au bu power is illustrated in brush knee (luo xi au bu). As you say, it is interesting to see how many taijiquan moves use shun bu/same side power.

Dave C.

Dave i think you have them the wrong way round like pps tried to point out.

In the movement of ward off power from rear leg is issued across into forward arm. brush knee - the power is generated forward by the rear which is on the same side as the higher hand issuing forward.

i guess it depend on which perspective you take - because throughout the cross body substantial and insubstantial is always shifting. So at the end of these two movements - the finishing postures - your description is fine. But if we wish to talk about the issuing of power "bottom up" then I think it is ward off that is opposite side and brush knee that is same side.

?

[cloudz]

In my opinion when we have a "cross-linked" substantial/insubstantial relation we can generate higher speed (because of the body rotation) and also our balance is better.
Contrary when we have a single-sided substantial/insubstantial relation our speed is limited with the speed produced by the gravity acceleration (there is no mentionable body rotation) and our ballance is not optimal.
However in the chaotic fight we can't always choose how our weight and it relation to the hitting hand are related (it is mostly given to us).

To always shift between sides according to cross-lining is a bad Idea. It is just too too slow. You need a versatile shenfa and know how to change fast between cross-linking/single side linking, substantial/insubstantial, stationary root/dynamic root/no root (when to temporarily loose root)/ hard and soft (for instance sometimes, if you stiff up, you can fool your opponent to stiff up as well).

Shen fa only has fixed rules when practicing with fixed rules. And when dealing with form, shen fa is often one-dimensional, focusing on only a few aspects of shen fa.

Doing the right thing at the right time is what matters when you fight. You have no time to worry about what aspects of your shen fa you use. If you practice long enough, your body will tell you what to do in what situation: how to maintain stability, when to change posture and from what position you will strike hardest according your opponents position. In real situations things get more complicated than this and you will have no time worrying about things like this. But your body will know by itself if you teach it well.

QFT!

(My first ever QFT, yay)

[cloudz]

.....

[cloudz]

I find cross line body work to be exceedingly fast, with the ground instantly avialable at all times, in rapid jabs, elbow, shoulder strikes that require zero wind-up. More importantly is the throw resistance aspect in Judo or jujutsu. The body winds and moves in a continual state of non-dedicated easy weight transfer that makes it tough to deal with when throwing or trying to throw them. For that matter even though I don't know push-hands from a hole in the wall, the body method has held me in good stead there as well.

I don't do forms and I don't care about anything that won't increase my game. I just don't give a shit unless it can knock someone senseless, throw them on their ass and let me submit them, or prevent them from doing it to me. The question of mobility -with this being too slow-I personally find to be without merit. The feet and body-mass move freer as there is no dedicated transfer of weight needing to take place side to side the way same-side weighted people move. And the interchange in weight and more importantly the joining of it is instantanious, then its spearates instantaniously again.
Overall it generates more mass times velocity. Same side simply cannot deliver that way. It....is slower and...its easier to be thrown. You move and carry your wieght like everyone else. If you're thinking this type of movement looks different or you can see it-without it being pointed out-you can't. But you will feel it and be able to understand it's different instantly. I have never...ever... met someone who could do it without a lot of training. Just the independance of waist movement from hips usually sees most Martial artists undone when they first try to move this way. Some stand there unable to even move- trying to force their body to undo what it has always done. It's different than normal movement.
I'd suggest getting your hands on people who train this way-and more importantly -do it well. Try throwing them, ask them to hit you fast with no wind ups. When you get up off the floor. you can either tell them "They hit and move too slow," or you can ask "How they are training that type of movement?" I'd bet on the later rather than the former.


The quote probably came from Chen Fake as quoted in "Taiji the pracitcal method" from Joe Chen. I never did taiji, but it's there. Oddly the way it is discussed in the book it is if this has always been a controversial topic with much misunderstanding / disagreement. I know in the majority of Japanese arts they consider it to mean the weight over both feet like others have mentioned here. Apparently the debate is nothing new in the Chinese arts either.

i'm not sure you grasped what bao was getting at re. the speed thing. Your weight is either one place or another - it's all well and good saying it better to issue across your body, for whatever reason. But when things are happening fast - it's the adjusting to the situation so you can use that that may slow you down.

If you're in a good position to and throw a right cross - the power comes from your rear right leg, what power and speed did you lose ?

And what power / speed will you gain and or lose by switching in that split moment. likely the firsdt thing you'll lose is the opportunity to throw it. no?

I'm sure this is just misunderstanding on my part - but what are we meaning by "same side weighted people"?

Say a jab is issued rear leg to front hand (across), any punch from the rear hand would be same side then. so would that mean you only ever strike with your front hand ?

Or are you standing square on.

If you are more talking about standing grappling - could you give a few example what you mean, much appreciated.

cheers
George

[Bill]

Here's a nice photo of the cross-allignment principle in action.

[Samoobramba]

Beautiful!

[Bodywork]

I'm not sure you grasped what bao was getting at re. the speed thing. Your weight is either one place or another - it's all well and good saying it better to issue across your body, for whatever reason. But when things are happening fast - it's the adjusting to the situation so you can use that that may slow you down.

That makes no sense in either case. One side weighted punching launches weight from one foot to the other with a shift. cross-line has the weight availible in the body to change internally instead of being launched around the spine and stay in the body and issue out from it. Therefore it changes at speed in a shorter path. the mobility factor also involves what lifts the legs into the trunk and where you kick from. Which, contrary to all your saying usually makes people comment on how fast I am! Theres no point in debating it. you simply cannot say what you are saying if you undersood both methods. To someone who undertands both, the statment that it's slower is just non...sense.

If you're in a good position to and throw a right cross - the power comes from your rear right leg, what power and speed did you lose ?

From winding around the spine from the left foot and allowing it to engage more mass in with the right side which is axiomatic and that increases weight times velocity and creates and offers more momentum and deeper penetraition. More importantly is the ability to instantly shift weight and prevent many throw attempts. That gets more complex with a positive / negative support but it is nonetheless very effective.

And what power / speed will you gain and or lose by switching in that split moment. likely the firsdt thing you'll lose is the opportunity to throw it. no?

Having spent the majority of my life moving the other way, I am quite satisfied that this is both faster, and more powerful, particularly in anti throwing and in instant power in the hands.

I'm sure this is just misunderstanding on my part - but what are we meaning by "same side weighted people"

Lauching left to right with weight on the same hand side to hit loses a substantial portion of weight. Throwing people by bringing their weight over their center or on to one side.

Say a jab is issued rear leg to front hand (across), any punch from the rear hand would be same side then. so would that mean you only ever strike with your front hand ?

No, you wind or issue from either side but because of the way the weight is carried you can touch, press, strike or throw and the floor is felt in your hands. It is sharp, painful, and requires no windup to deliver. so retraction and external winding up is not needed. What gets fun is being in a clinch and the guy hacing his ribd open and having th epower to break ribs or knock-out from close -in. Works on the ground too.

Or are you standing square on
If you are more talking about standing grappling - could you give a few example what you mean, much appreciated.

Stances and and feet placement has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. Positional dominance is active and ever changing. I "think" of setting up and staying one step ahead, same as on the ground. Then Murphy steps in.