Utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

[Formosa Neijia]

Dave i think you have them the wrong way round like pps tried to point out.

In the movement of ward off power from rear leg is issued across into forward arm. brush knee - the power is generated forward by the rear which is on the same side as the higher hand issuing forward.

i guess it depend on which perspective you take - because throughout the cross body substantial and insubstantial is always shifting. So at the end of these two movements - the finishing postures - your description is fine. But if we wish to talk about the issuing of power "bottom up" then I think it is ward off that is opposite side and brush knee that is same side.

?

No, I don't have them confused. I'm saying that these moves can be done with the weight in either leg. As Buddy pointed out, double-weightedness happens when you don't have intent in the yin side of the move, i.e. the less obvious hand or leg. Where the weight is depends on where you want it or need it. I even do GST on one leg. You mention ward off. That's an upward and outward movement as I do it. Which foot is weighted makes no difference.

Again, some of the literalness of these supposed requirements goes away as you progress. So we shouldn't use these things to beat each other over the head. Many of them are temporary restrictions to get you to move a certain way until you realize the principle. When you do, the restrictive quality can be let go.

Dave C.

[kreese]

I do hope the guy I am fighting is worrying about something trivial like this while I am punching him in the nose. Ha ha.

No really, when I consider a facet of shen fa, I ask myself:

1) Is it a safe movement for my body? Will it hurt me if I do it quickly and explosively?
2) Is there yin/yang? This is where I do it slowly trying to feel how the energy (feeling of force/momentum moving through my body) flows.
3) Can I pull it off naturally--both super slow and super fast?
4) How I can I crystallize the movement into several fighting techniques?

If I can satisfy myself with the answers to these questions, I don't give a poop what anyone else thinks except my teacher, but he gives us enough respect to assume we will go through this examination process ourselves.

[Bodywork]

I'm perfectly delighted that so many are ignorant of the truth of it...as I throw them on their ass or hit them.
Its not a waza or way to do a waza- it's part of the way you move automatically and after training it-naturally that increases power and central equilibrium.

[Formosa Neijia]

I'm perfectly delighted that so many are ignorant of the truth of it...as I throw them on their ass or hit them.
Its not a waza or way to do a waza- it's part of the way you move automatically and after training it-naturally that increases power and central equilibrium.

Maybe one day we'll all be as special as you.

Dave C.

[PartridgeRun]

Maybe one day we'll all be as special as you.

Unbelievable. I just don't get it, I really don't.
Here, on this board, you have people like Bodywork, Interloper or that Upyu guy, whose posts, more often than not, goes right to the heart of what it means and what it implies to develop your body using "Internal training methods". And every time they try to point it out, they either get ignored, or some cry-baby with an inferiority-complex or lack of proper internal training, comes whining by and muddles the topic.
Man. And this is even a board explicitly dedicated to the discussion of internal martial arts - it really is fukkin' ironic.

It doesn't take more than half a brain and a few hours to actually do the check-up on the aforementioned Bodywork or Upyu and some of the discussions(backed by hands-on experience) they have had elsewhere to know that there actually IS established consensus of what "teh realz internal training" is and the very real martial benefits of such a training-regime. I mean, even with all the information out there now, the majority still seems to be grasping at straws; Mike Sigman was goddamned right in saying that only the slightest minority ever seems to get it.

[jack coffee]

...............

[Formosa Neijia]

Unbelievable. I just don't get it, I really don't.
Here, on this board, you have people like Bodywork, Interloper or that Upyu guy, whose posts, more often than not, goes right to the heart of what it means and what it implies to develop your body using "Internal training methods". And every time they try to point it out, they either get ignored, or some cry-baby with an inferiority-complex or lack of proper internal training, comes whining by and muddles the topic.
Man. And this is even a board explicitly dedicated to the discussion of internal martial arts - it really is fukkin' ironic.

It doesn't take more than half a brain and a few hours to actually do the check-up on the aforementioned Bodywork or Upyu and some of the discussions(backed by hands-on experience) they have had elsewhere to know that there actually IS established consensus of what "teh realz internal training" is and the very real martial benefits of such a training-regime. I mean, even with all the information out there now, the majority still seems to be grasping at straws; Mike Sigman was goddamned right in saying that only the slightest minority ever seems to get it.

I see this is your first post. Unlike you, I've been here a long time. Dan Harden aka "Bodywork" has a long history of bashing people based on obscure things that he sees as important. For example, if you'd have been around longer you might have seen him call everyone on EF a "suburban white boy hobbyist" last year.

If you think that Harden's stuff is the bee's knees, then that's fine with me. But if he's going to say that everyone that doesn't do everything the exact same way that he does knows nothing (as he usually does), then I have the right to call him on it.

But fair enough. I've said what I have to say. Have at it.

Dave C.

[Ian]

Maybe one day we'll all be as special as you.

Unbelievable. I just don't get it, I really don't.
Here, on this board, you have people like Bodywork, Interloper or that Upyu guy, whose posts, more often than not, goes right to the heart of what it means and what it implies to develop your body using "Internal training methods".

These people practice inferior, external Japanese martial arts, though. Please see the "Yiquan Against Foreign Challengers" thread in the Video Links forum for more information.

[Dmitri]

bashing people based on obscure things that he sees as important. For example, if you'd have been around longer you might have seen him call everyone on EF a "suburban white boy hobbyist" last year.

I've been here probably longer than you, and I don't remember him "bashing" people. His posting style does bring out a lot of nasty passive-aggressiveness in many people who usually are not even close to the same level of understanding of IMA that he is.
And re. the "suburban white boy hobbyist" -- you might also remember he clarified what he meant, when he said that.



Ian -- LOL

[Bodywork]

I see this is your first post. Unlike you, I've been here a long time. Dan Harden aka "Bodywork" has a long history of bashing people based on obscure things that he sees as important. For example, if you'd have been around longer you might have seen him call everyone on EF a "suburban white boy hobbyist" last year.
Dave C.

Cite?
I am quite sure you are wrong as I don't think that way
a) I actively searched out the ICMA out of respect for them
b) I have publicly stated here and on two Japanese boards that the people I have met in the ICM are more my kind of people-thinkers and researchers. Futher that they at least enter the discussion with an understanding that there IS internal training. Couple that with me saying the exact same thing in private to several people on this board
I have also said that sadly it appears that many who post here that I have read and you guys seem to agree because you argue with each other-is that there are a lot who...don't get it ans talk about it from an external perspective. And you argue over what *it* is.

My comments about suburban white boys- an expression I use- is that many martial artists havent really gone out an banged or rolled. It has nothing to do with internal or not or empty flower or not. Just that many guys of all walks don't really roll and test. If you don't fight with it and test it with others outside your system you don't really know. and I think percentage wise that is ireffutable. All of us test to some degree but don't go all out-so in that sense we are all suburban white boy hobbyist aren't we? Others-and this includes me, to test it outside of a system and while there are some injuries it is still safe practice-our lives aren't in danger are they? So, I think your comment is unwarrented. Ligthen up and have fun.

That you choose to take insult where none is intended is a choice you make. If I intend an insult- it would be to leave. I don't engage in dialogue with people that I have no respect for, what would be the point? So the fact that I am here and I post, means -at least in my mind- that I am engaging people and arts I have respect for. I think there are many here who get the theory but not really the skills. I think some have the skills to back up the theory, I think others have some power, and others have some serious power and skills. All of which makes this?...a martial art board.
Edited for spelling and added content

[cloudz]

Here's a nice photo of the cross-allignment principle in action.

So it's just a description of a finishing posture - it's commonly described as twist step by us commoners.

If that is all everyone was getting at. duh - silly me!

Allignment? you should always be well alligned. crossed or otherwise.. but if we speak of allignment in the six harmonies CMA category of description then the elbow isn't suppose to allign with the knee of the otherside..

Bodywork - Thank you for explaining your thinking and perspective. On fist reading I can't digest what you are saying. But I will try a few more times for sure.

A clip of you in action would work wonders all round. i'm much more a picture person than a words person. Sure maybe I can feel stuff when I train etc. but discussing it like this I find hard work. If a picture speaks a thousand words, than think what a a clip can convey.

I hope it is not too much too much to ask ?

thanks George.

[cloudz]

No, I don't have them confused. I'm saying that these moves can be done with the weight in either leg.

God i must be thick. Whatever move, your weight goes from one leg to another yes? In ward off weight shifts from rear leg to front leg yes? Do you shift left to right and ward of left for example - can't say i have ever come across that.

Or do you have the weight in whatever leg you like and then do the upper body move? I must be missing something!

As Buddy pointed out, double-weightedness happens when you don't have intent in the yin side of the move, i.e. the less obvious hand or leg. Where the weight is depends on where you want it or need it. I even do GST on one leg. You mention ward off. That's an upward and outward movement as I do it. Which foot is weighted makes no difference.

See i don't get it. Why is it a metter of which foot is weighted. I mean do you do ward off backwards man!?

Your weight shifts from one leg to another - if you stop everything stops if you move everything moves. How can you say which foot is weighted makes no difference unless you are playing ward of in a supremely funky way. i wasn't thinking or speaking about any double weight issues but about substantial and insubstantial. Which is why i mentioned that with this "state of flux" the finishing posture will be opposite to the starting posture - so it may be you are describing the finishing posture of ward off as same side foward weighted - that I can comprehend. If we liken that fantastic still picture of a boxer which is like brush knee finishing posture. His front hand became substantial at the point of impact.

But are you describing the forward arm in ward off as both weighted and subsantial? I mention that because i don't apply weightedness to the upper torso - just a small matter of gravity and what really supports weight - so it is kwa and down .. for me.

If left leg is where the weight is that is Yin - substantial(fixed) - this makes the right arm yin also, substantial. Other cross side of the body is Yang - insubstantial.(free)

There may be other interpretations (pretty sure there is), but this is a legit one. But i don't have sources to quote you to hand. but that is what feels "right" to me..

Again, some of the literalness of these supposed requirements goes away as you progress. So we shouldn't use these things to beat each other over the head. Many of them are temporary restrictions to get you to move a certain way until you realize the principle. When you do, the restrictive quality can be let go.

Dave C.

great, that I can understand. i just seems we are maybe not understanding eachothers descriptions of what's going on than arguing over some disagreement. i wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you Dave.

cheers
George

[cloudz]

Here's a nice photo of the cross-allignment principle in action.

So it's just a description of a finishing posture - it's commonly described as twist step by us commoners.

If that is all everyone was getting at. duh - silly me!

Allignment? you should always be well alligned. crossed or otherwise.. but if we speak of allignment in the six harmonies CMA category of description then the elbow isn't suppose to allign with the knee of the otherside..

So my question has to be where does this cross body allignment principle come from, how does it work, what does it mean. If you just mean finishing posture like that then fine - see twist step. Cheers

Bodywork - Thank you for explaining your thinking and perspective. On fist reading I can't digest what you are saying. But I will try a few more times for sure.

A clip of you in action would work wonders all round. i'm much more a picture person than a words person. Sure maybe I can feel stuff when I train etc. but discussing it like this I find hard work. If a picture speaks a thousand words, than think what a a clip can convey.

I hope it is not too much too much to ask ?

thanks George

[David Boxen]

George,
Bodywork has put up many clips of himself over the years.

[somatai]

Dan "bodywork" opened my eyes to this exact coordination being discussed.....i did not know that I did not know how to do it....now that I have seen it, I will train it and learn to from it, it will only make one better.....to be able to separate the waist from the hips is a skill, learn to do it and then decide if it is valuable to apply....i am quite sure it is....my .2