Counters

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Counters

Postby johnwang on Thu May 15, 2008 11:36 pm

What's the general counter principle in your system? One counter principle in SC is "If you attack my front leg then I'll attack your back leg". Please share some counter principles in your system.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu May 15, 2008 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Counters

Postby ashe on Fri May 16, 2008 1:48 am

meet the force.

you catch it early before it has a chance to get powerful.
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Re: Counters

Postby C.J.Wang on Fri May 16, 2008 2:08 am

Folding of the joints to neutralize, redirect, and counter strike.
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Re: Counters

Postby Swede on Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 am

Mr. Wang (John, that is), not being familiar with Shuai Jiao, can you please elaborate on how that works? I'm trying to picture it but I'm not creative enough.

I was taught to take whatever they give you and march in toward the center--if they give you a fist, take the elbow, if they give you an elbow, take the shoulder. etc.
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Re: Counters

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Fri May 16, 2008 5:13 am

One principle is to move in to catch the strike before the point of power. This might be similar to what Ashe said but the easiest example would be to move into a round house kick and block it just before the knee. I prefer to move in and in the same direction of a roundhouse kick.

Another prinicple is to make the person continue in the direction of their power. So if a step to the inside of a roundhouse kick and as I catch the kick I spin pulling the leg with me I would be using this principle. If someone throws a straight punch and you block it upward you can move the arm while keeping their body moving forward right into a punch, knee, or elbow of your own also.
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Re: Counters

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Fri May 16, 2008 6:52 am

kill the force. step into punches, jump into kicks.

force the shortening of the line of fire.

for me, this is a powerful empty hand tactic, but it does require quite a lot of conditioning to be able to do it with an effect.
It also makes you fight in very short range so you are subject to clinch and takedown.

Now for me, this is where most everything happens in a conflict. IE up close and personal and for empty hand, that's where I want to be, right up and in it.
the kungfu I have learned tactically deals with this range considerably.

Combined with wrestling tactics when you do get taken down, it get's interesting.

outside rim shot stuff is not my thing. It takes too long to get the job done. :)
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Re: Counters

Postby neimen on Fri May 16, 2008 7:04 am

i second c.j. wang--make contact, stick, fold.
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Re: Counters

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 16, 2008 7:59 am

johnwang wrote:What's the general counter principle in your system? One counter principle in SC is "If you attack my front leg then I'll attack your back leg". Please share some counter principles in your system.


One similar to what you mentioned is "if he attacks low -- respond high, and vice versa"...
An idea of an imaginary "ball" could be used, i.e. you could picture a "ball" with you and opponent "stuck" to its opposite sides; he goes left - you go right, he goes up - you go down, etc.

None of that stuff is set in stone of course.

The one most "general" principle that I can think of for this, is "listen carefully and respond as early as possible"

FWIW
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Re: Counters

Postby qiphlow on Fri May 16, 2008 8:44 am

hit him with a bat.

aside from that, i agree with what everone else is saying. the hard thing for me is to actually move into the guy when he's trying to hit me. it's quite counterintuitive.
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Re: Counters

Postby Josealb on Fri May 16, 2008 8:56 am

hi John, the example of the legs that you gave...its when someones "bites" your front leg? or it applies in everything that is directed at it (like scooping it, stepping on it, grabbing it, etc)?
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Re: Counters

Postby bailewen on Fri May 16, 2008 9:12 am

I'll try and keep it nuts and bolts like John did. I got the impression he was asking about specific couters, not general principles of fighting. I'll throw one out there:

Counter Parting High Pat Horse (Shuai Jiao's "cuo") with Fair Lady Works Shuttles.

Here's a video:



The first throw Shifu does on me is "High Pat Horse"

In the second exchange I attempted to counter with "Step Back Repulse Monkey" using head wrapping and a leg sweep but he just dropped down a bit and slipped out.

In the third part he is explain that I should have used "Fair Lady Works Shuttles" to counter that and shows me, in a cooperative fasion, how its done.
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Re: Counters

Postby SitYodTong on Fri May 16, 2008 1:34 pm

Personally I always try to create angles. I never hit simply moving forwards--I try to slightly angle to each side to avoid my opponent's counterattacks and to set up more strikes/throws.

So I guess in short--I never go through the front door. I'm always trying to get in the sidedoor or the backdoor (stop giggling damnit!).
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Re: Counters

Postby johnwang on Fri May 16, 2008 1:42 pm

Swede wrote: can you please elaborate on how that works?

When your opponent uses his front leg to

- hook your front leg such as "front cut",
- apply a round house kick on your front low leg,

all his weight is on his back leg. If you sweep or hook his back standing leg then he will be down.
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Re: Counters

Postby Walk the Torque on Fri May 16, 2008 3:56 pm

ashe wrote:meet the force.

you catch it early before it has a chance to get powerful.


This in yang style is intercepting energy.
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Re: Counters

Postby Walk the Torque on Fri May 16, 2008 3:59 pm

In my Ba gua I am constantly striving to move into the spaces around the opponants body. This automatically sets up counters.
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