Kettlebells anyone?

[nianfong]

Posted by: Peacedog Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 10:31am
To all,
I had long thought that kettlebells were kind of gimmicky. I bought one two weeks ago (35lbs) and played with that for a week. I just bought a 53lb one as I am now hooked. Really good for core strength and it is doing a decent job of re-habbing my right shoulder.

So who else out these is using these things?

Cheers,

Peacedog
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:01am
I just started as well--seriously fun to play with Smiley
thanks to caliG for selling his old one to me. after using it only 3 times, my back is already feeling better.
Posted by: fuga Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:06am
you doing those turkish get ups yet, fong?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:08am
not yet. been working it into my usual workout routine. will try it out tonight Smiley
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:20am
Been swingin for years. Love em..... Working out with twin 53's and 70's....

Lewitt
Posted by: mix Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:24am
I was working with a thirty fiver for a few months, but I moved into a downtown apt and don't want to lug it ten minutes to the park. also don't want to break my apt if I drop the thing on the floor Tongue
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:42am
I can't do the TGU with my 70 yet... but here's a pretty sick clip of a variation:



lewitt
Posted by: jafc Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:50am
started using 4 months ago.
KB is an awesome work-out.
Check out S. Cotter's stuff for martial artists. He has a lot of good exercises specifically addressing our needs.
JC
Posted by: Dale Dugas Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 3:42pm
Have them and use them all the time. I train with them with KB material as well as use them for my bagua training.

Here is my infamous KB and weight vest vid:


I like them very much but I also like bodyweight exercises, tension sets, cables and other tools to develop freaky amounts of power.

Be well, train hard

Dale
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:03pm
on May 8th, 2008, 11:01am, nianfong wrote:
I just started as well--seriously fun to play with Smiley
thanks to caliG for selling his old one to me. after using it only 3 times, my back is already feeling better.


Don't mention it. I put that money into buying a 34 pounder.

I use it for the swings and the 26 pounder for the cleans.

They've done a lot for strengthening my back too. At work I have to move a lot of big packages and I haven't had any problems with my back being strained thanks to the KBs.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:29pm
This is not a slite in any way..... But you gotta move up in weight. The average adult male should really start with a 53 and jump up to a 70 pretty quickly. If you're not seriously taxing yourself you're prolly not getting as much out of it as you could be.

Most of the bigtime KB guys say ou should be lifting 85% of your max for up to 5 reps on the Grinds.

Lewitt
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:32pm
I'm rehabbing my back, so I'm starting "light" with the 26 lber.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:40pm
That's fine.... everyone has special considerations, but be careful. You can develop habits by working lite that will actually hurt you when you bump up the intensity. I have been lifting for about 5 yrs now, and I still make dumb mistakes from time to time. Your lower back is especially vulnerable, so you gotta be careful on your form.

KB's are a great tool. I love em. I think they are especially well suited to CIMA b/c of their demands on structure and training whole body power.

Fong: Do you practice Box Squats??

Lewitt

Oh, also, if you're doing Swings for your back.... those aren't grinds, those are the ballistic lifts. Lighter weight and higher reps are fine.
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:42pm
on May 8th, 2008, 4:29pm, TaoBoxer wrote:
This is not a slite in any way..... But you gotta move up in weight. The average adult male should really start with a 53 and jump up to a 70 pretty quickly. If you're not seriously taxing yourself you're prolly not getting as much out of it as you could be.

Most of the bigtime KB guys say ou should be lifting 85% of your max for up to 5 reps on the Grinds.

Lewitt


Actually I've heard that with KBs you don't want to go to your max as you with dumbbells.

You want to slowly build up good habits, because otherwise you could easily injure your back or your wrist or worse.

In terms of martial arts my interest is in whole body movement and power not just in buidling muscles.

I always keep in mind that traditionally boxers did't lift weights. Although it would be cool to be able to lift a 70 like a baby.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:49pm
As I said.... 85% of your max for 5 reps.

Most of the "old school" KB guys (Pavels original group of RKC's) will never tell you to train to failure. These days a lot of "orthodox" weight lifting types are starting to cash in on the trend so there's a lot of conflicting info out there.

Persoanlly, I stay to the Pavel doctrine.

Lewitt
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:50pm
yup, I'm doing KB swings to rehab my back. high reps, keeping my horse stance good while popping the hips. I'm also doing one-sided cleans and shoulder presses.

what's a box squat?

-Fong
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:59pm
I think Pavel had a "complete package" so to speak. An entirely different method of sports physiology than what most americans were used to. Coincidentally, I also think it is very much in harmony with CIMA.

Fong,

There are 2 very important exercises to do to give you proper form for the Swings. 1 is a wall squat. Put your toes against a wall, then bend down deeeeep and it forces your ass out. Second is the box squat. Stand in front of a weight bench about 2 feet, based on your height. Keep your shins vertical, dip down and reach out with your ass till you jsut barely touch the edge of the bench. It'll flatten out your back rather than round it.

It should really clean up your form.

Lewitt
Posted by: dragontigerpalm Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 5:00pm
I'm not sure that I can see any benefit for fighting in doing shoulder presses and I think (with no scientific basis) that they might be debilitating in the long term.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 5:24pm
you might not if you don't do shuajiao Wink a lot of the power for uprooting someone for an over-the-hip type throws come from a shoulder press type motion.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 5:32pm
I'm not sure what a shoulder press is, but in KB terms, we have a Military press. I usually try to work them as Doubles, with 2 bells.

Starting positing is with the bells racked, forearms in front of your chest vertically. I like to round my back in, take a nice deep breath, compress the abdomen, and then press.

The press is a corkscrew motion. the arms roll out as you press up. The finish position is actually with the bell out behind your head. This strengthens out the shoulder girdle.

As described, this exercise works your lats, traps, tricpets, delts and all of the rotational and stabilizing muscles. You can also work the lower body in varrying ways

My personal feeling is this: producing power is a function of structure and the ability to generate force along certain lines. Lifting big heavy iron helps with that force. Lifting big heavy iron directly over your squash makes you REALLY pay attention to your structure.

Lewitt
Posted by: johnwang Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 5:56pm
on May 8th, 2008, 4:29pm, TaoBoxer wrote:
start with a 53 and jump up to a 70 pretty quickly.

If you work on KB with slow speed then 53 or 70 lb may be OK. If you work KB at fast speed then 53 or 70 lb may tear your muscle apart. I like to work out with maximum speed and I found out that even 35 lb may tear my shoulder apart if I swing that KB from behind, over my head, and then drop between my legs with fast speed.

Too much weight + slow speed = OK
Took much weight + fast speed = not OK

The question is: Do you use weight to build up your "speed" or your "strength"?
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 6:15pm
I think that's a pretty serious exaggeration. I do high intensity stuff with the 53's. The 70's for me at this point are straight Grind exercises (more slow and controlled). Nothing is getting shredded, I promise you.

If you look up Steve Cotter or Mike Mahler on Youtube, I think this will reinforce my point.

The really fun thing to do is to trick your body into performing better. If you're doing snatches with a 45 and you want to snatch 53 or 65 lbs..... you can start doing swings with a 70, or 2 53's........ Then you drop down to the lower weight.... You'll throw it up like it's nothing.

Lewitt
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 6:24pm
on May 8th, 2008, 5:00pm, dragontigerpalm wrote:
I'm not sure that I can see any benefit for fighting in doing shoulder presses and I think (with no scientific basis) that they might be debilitating in the long term.


As I was saying before I always keep in mind that traditionally boxers didn't lift weights because they believed it slowed you down.

I hear gymnists also don't lift weights and neither does Karo Parisyan.

I think lifting too much or dedicating too much time to weight training can work against you if you're doing it to supplement your martial training, not to mention the time it can take away from your training.

For me weight training it only takes up about 10% of my training time. I do it to build up whole body movement as well as strengthening my body for throwing and grappling in which case along with lots of cardio it has helped a lot.

Before when I used to go to judo or bjj I would leave completely winded and in pain. Now I just change my clothes and go to work like it was nothing.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 6:30pm
KB training shouldnt take up a lot of time.... Thats the point. It is high intensity, low rep stuff. Look at video of Pavel. He is one of the smoothest, fastest, most flexible guys out there.

I usually spend 4-5 hours in the kwoon. My warm up is 3 sets on the stairs (8 story building thats about 100 yrs old, so it's actually more like 10 stories) and about 30 minutes of kettlebells. I try to do a "downward ladder" which is a set of about 5 exercises that I do as a 5 rep circut.... then 4 reps, then 3, then 2, then 1.

That jsut about makes me yak. I take a little break, and then either stand for about 90 minutes, or do ba gua for the rest of the nite.

Lewitt
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 6:39pm
I do find it interesting though how guys like Andre Ward have such knockout power without lifting weights.

Any thoughts?

Hi Lewitt,

I'll play with some of those things and see how they work out for me.

I too am a fan of Pavel's material.


Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 6:41pm
I used kbs for a while, but now I'm back to the more serious bodyweight exercises.

I believe you get the most benefit out of being able to move your own weight gracefully.

Can you

-do 10 handstand pushups
-do 15 pulls and chins
-do 10 pistols
-hold an elbow lever
-hold a back lever?

Anyone who says you can't get a full workout with bodyweight is obviously not trying hard enough Smiley
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 7:17pm
I think that power in fighting is different from the ability to lift a lot of weight. There's a few reasons for this. One is that the formula for Force in physics is MassxVelocity squared. mass is important but velocity is 10x as important....literally!

Second, I think that frame and structure have a lot to do with really being able to stick it to someone. Third is knowing HOW to hit them, and where/when.

Don't lose site of the fact that kettlebells are just a TOOL. you can use them however you want. Mike Mahler has an EXCELLENT video called "Explosive speed and power." In it he talks about the benefits of fast-twitch training as opposed to the raw power stuff he does in some of his other materiel.

Ian:

I think you're exactly right.... But it's just a matter of what turns you on. Yoga, Indian Wrestling, and Cique de Soleil has turned out some crazy strong people..... But I just love the Bells.

Lewitt
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 7:34pm
on May 8th, 2008, 7:17pm, TaoBoxer wrote:
Ian:

I think you're exactly right.... But it's just a matter of what turns you on. Yoga, Indian Wrestling, and Cique de Soleil has turned out some crazy strong people..... But I just love the Bells.

Lewitt


Flags. Flags turn me on big time.

Of course, follow your bliss and all that.

One disadvantage of kbs versus bodyweight, though, is that you can move huge weight with kbs even though you're doing it with less than perfect form. This will create dead spots around your body without you even realizing it.

But certain type of bodyweight exercises are impossible without proper form, so it really pinpoints your weaknesses.
Posted by: Helios Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 7:50pm
Ian,

Have you tried freerunning/parkour? For my time/money, it's one of the best (and most fun) workouts around. Of course, I'm fortunate in that I have access to guys who are teaching it in an intelligent manner in a nice big gymnastics studio.

For the KB guys:
I 've checked out some of the instructional videos and messed around swinging some KB-like weights around, and it seems somewhat deficient in terms of spine articulation, and possibly in terms of overall range of motion as well. Do you find the more advanced exercises address this, or do you tend to make up your own stuff?

Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 7:56pm
on May 8th, 2008, 7:50pm, Helios wrote:
Ian,

Have you tried freerunning/parkour? For my time/money, it's one of the best (and most fun) workouts around. Of course, I'm fortunate in that I have access to guys who are teaching it in an intelligent manner in a nice big gymnastics studio.


Hi Helios,

No I haven't, although I do like to jump off things and roll, and monkey about on climbing frames.

My main goals right now are things like

-one hand handstands
-one hand chins
-flags
-all sorts of levers
etc.

I'll give it a try if there are any good teachers around.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:00pm
I'm a big fan of body weight exercises too. I don't like weights in general, but the KB's are more fun.
the thing is, shuajiao is about moving someone ELSE's weight in addition to your own, which is why whole body weight training is done traditionally. if you train to move heavy objects around with your whole body, you will more easily move resisting people around with your whole body.
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:12pm
IME bodyweight will get you stronger, faster.

Don't get me wrong, I love my kb. It's seriously good fun.

But IMO if you can crack out 20 pistols with a relaxed knee, hip, and back, that'll help your fireman's carry a lot more than snatches, squats or whatever. Being able to do pistols = explosive POWAH.

Pistols with your kb even more so, but if you're not careful it can exacerbate muscular-skeletal issues e.g. over-pronation, tight hips...

Anyway they're both pieces of the same puzzle.

And once again http://www.beastskills.com is an excellent bodyweight resource.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:15pm
I'm also gonna be doing shoulder throw type motions with my KB. I won't do that with a 50 lb one for a while. you really can't develop a good shoulder throw with bodyweight exercises only. you have to just do the motion over and over, and you need a body to throw.
Posted by: Dillon Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:31pm
I actually just got a kettlebell (16kg) from a coworker who got a couple, hurt himself, and decided he didn't need it. I'm looking for a good routine for it at the moment; I'm just playing, doing snatches and cleans, swings, etc.. but not in a terribly organized manner.
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:42pm
on May 8th, 2008, 8:15pm, nianfong wrote:
I'm also gonna be doing shoulder throw type motions with my KB. I won't do that with a 50 lb one for a while. you really can't develop a good shoulder throw with bodyweight exercises only. you have to just do the motion over and over, and you need a body to throw.


Sounds cool. How do you do that?
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:53pm
I haven't actually started training it yet (I have an awesome pulley machine at the gym called Freemotion that works great for shoulder throw type motions)
but my coach showed it to me. He basically swung the bell in a horizontal arc outwards and then curled the bell in and did a shoulder throw underneath it, keeping the bell above the shoulder. i believe you can also work the yin-side by doing effectively a clean with the yin hand over the opposite shoulder, though I need to test it. might need to tie a belt to it, and then it might get dangerous.
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 9:17pm
Quote:
I used kbs for a while, but now I'm back to the more serious bodyweight exercises.

I believe you get the most benefit out of being able to move your own weight gracefully.


I do both, KBs at home and bodyweight in class.

They both work the body in different ways, but I haven't seen anything that strengthens the back and wrists like KBs or prepares the body for the type of pressure it has to deal with in grappling/wrestling like KBs and as you said they're fun to do.

on May 8th, 2008, 8:31pm, Dillon wrote:
I actually just got a kettlebell (16kg) from a coworker who got a couple, hurt himself, and decided he didn't need it. I'm looking for a good routine for it at the moment; I'm just playing, doing snatches and cleans, swings, etc.. but not in a terribly organized manner.


This is a pretty good routine.



Keep the back straight for the swings and never lean back for the overhead press stuff.

Good times,

G
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 9:36pm
on May 8th, 2008, 9:17pm, CaliG wrote:


They both work the body in different ways, but I haven't seen anything that strengthens the back and wrists like KBs


Back: handstands, handstand pushups, inverted rows, front levers, chins, pulls, back levers.

Wrists: anything where you have to press. Flags, elbow levers, L-seats, handstands, fist pushups, static fist pushups.

If anything, I think bodyweight drills produce stronger wrists. If you don't destroy them first Smiley
Posted by: wkfung108 Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 9:46am
I'm all for going up in weight. But Pavel advocates that the "average adult male" start with the 35lb bell and move up to 54. If you've mastered those two, then by all means, go to something heavier.

I found that the 36lber (my first bell) gave me plenty to work with the first two years as it is. I mostly did the ballistic lifts (swings, C&J, snatch) with some grinds thrown in strictly for variety. I worked on increasing total reps per workout, then max one-set reps, then max timed set reps (maxing out both sets and reps).

I'm now about a year into working exclusively with the 54 and feel I might be ready for something more come fall. My feeling is that a lot of people move up in weight without having gotten all they can out of the lighter bell.

So: yes, go heavy eventually. But take your time -- your KB training, like your IMA training, isn't a race.

on May 8th, 2008, 6:15pm, TaoBoxer wrote:
I think that's a pretty serious exaggeration. I do high intensity stuff with the 53's. The 70's for me at this point are straight Grind exercises (more slow and controlled). Nothing is getting shredded, I promise you.

If you look up Steve Cotter or Mike Mahler on Youtube, I think this will reinforce my point.

The really fun thing to do is to trick your body into performing better. If you're doing snatches with a 45 and you want to snatch 53 or 65 lbs..... you can start doing swings with a 70, or 2 53's........ Then you drop down to the lower weight.... You'll throw it up like it's nothing.

Lewitt

Posted by: Qiang Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 10:07am
on May 8th, 2008, 9:36pm, Ian wrote:


Back: handstands, handstand pushups, inverted rows, front levers, chins, pulls, back levers.

Wrists: anything where you have to press. Flags, elbow levers, L-seats, handstands, fist pushups, static fist pushups.

If anything, I think bodyweight drills produce stronger wrists. If you don't destroy them first Smiley


Actually, the front and back lever should also improve your wrist and forearm strength. If you don't grip tightly, you won't execute those levers properly. Come to think of it, almost all the bodyweight exercises involving the hands will improve hand, wrist and forearm strength.

We just got KBs at my YMCA. They only went up to 25lbs for some absurd reason (probably b/c most people there are pretty weak). I think I might play with them, but I'll probably stick to mostly bodyweight stuff.
Posted by: JRC Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 1:29pm
Interestingly, Steve Cotter and the AKC/GS guys advocate timed sets (aiming for 10 minutes) in lieu of training the rep/set method. In fact, a lot of the competition lifters that post there suggest starting with a lighter kb and working up to a set time, then increasing the reps you can do in that time frame, and then increasing the weight. Personally, I have found using a lighter bell for a timed set of LCC&J is more of a workout (in terms of strength gains and cardio) than using a heavier set of bells for reps/sets.

In a post on Steve's forum(http://www.fullkontact.com), he indicated timed sets help you build your work capacity, vs. your work-rest capacity, which is what you get with reps/sets.
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 2:53pm
on May 9th, 2008, 1:29pm, JRC wrote:
In a post on Steve's forum(http://www.fullkontact.com), he indicated timed sets help you build your work capacity, vs. your work-rest capacity, which is what you get with reps/sets.


That's the type of workout that I usually do.

Sometimes I'll go through 4 or 5 exercises without putting down the bell.

Like the basic swing, under leg passes, cleans and then military press-ups. I find I get more out of it that way.

I also think it's more inline with martial arts, for example in sparring you have to keep going for a few minutes without stopping.

But I'll have to play with 85% of my max and see how that goes to compare it.

There's definately a lot more to KBs than meets the eye.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 4:54pm
Cali,

Don't take what I said out of context... GRINDS like the military press should be done at 85% of your max. Ballistic or flow drills (look up Jeff Martone and his Hand to Hand kettlebell drills) can be done at lower weight for endurance.

Lewitt
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 5:10pm
The military press is what I was referring to bro.
Posted by: Chris_Fleming Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 9:39pm
I started with a 53 and soon got an 80. I had heard much about them and wanted to use something to build my strength and conditioning during the winter when it was not as suitable to practice my heavy kwan dao. Soon I was hooked on the bells, and also the dead lift a la Power to the People.

As for the bells, heavy swings build strength and endurance. Heavy presses build strength and stability. I particularly like the two hands anyhow lift with my two bells and the TGU with the 80.

For picking up heavy things you'll need a barbell for the dead lift and the squat.

A wise man once said: Nothing wrong with being strong.
Posted by: dave Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 11:47pm
I love kettlebells! I've used them in the past, and tried to replicate the movements with DBs, but they feel different, the KBs need more/different/better technique to execute. Now I am saving my pennies for a light one and a heavy one, for both speed and strength.

I always thought F=MA or MV, I've never heard of it as F=M(Vsquared). Is that a specific physics thing?
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 12:20am
Here's a cool vid for working on over hand and shovel hooks.

Posted by: dragontigerpalm Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 12:33am
on May 10th, 2008, 12:20am, CaliG wrote:
Here's a cool vid for working on over hand and shovel hooks.



Cool clip. Thanks for posting.
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 10:18pm
on May 8th, 2008, 11:24am, mix wrote:
I was working with a thirty fiver for a few months, but I moved into a downtown apt and don't want to lug it ten minutes to the park. also don't want to break my apt if I drop the thing on the floor Tongue


HTFU and swing it!
Posted by: CaliG Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 10:21pm
on May 10th, 2008, 10:18pm, T J LePetomane wrote:


HTFU and swing it!


Exactly, just don't toss it.
Posted by: johnwang Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 10:28pm
on May 8th, 2008, 6:15pm, TaoBoxer wrote:
I think that's a pretty serious exaggeration.

Try to do this drill by using 70 lb or 53 lb and see what could that do to your shoulder joint.



Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 11th, 2008, 2:30am
You mean like this?



Lewitt
Posted by: Qiang Posted on: May 11th, 2008, 4:38am
on May 10th, 2008, 10:28pm, johnwang wrote:

Try to do this drill by using 70 lb or 53 lb and see what could that do to your shoulder joint.




[quote author=TaoBoxer]
You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I09-jQXNpA
[/quote]

Those two sets of exercises don't look completely comparable. The stone lock toss shows more strictly laterally oriented with bigger motion swings. The kettlebell vid has more front to back, more compact motions. Plus, in the kettlebell vid, the guy is using a lighter bell. I don't know if it'd be a wise idea to try some those same exercises with a heavier weight.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 11th, 2008, 5:37am
not only are they quite different movements the H2H chap was certainly not using a 50 or 70lb bell...looked more like a 20 to me
Posted by: Baguabyrd Posted on: May 11th, 2008, 11:12am
I love the kbs. Chiming in late on this one, but I do swings, snatches, clean and press mostly. I want to try the tgu but I need to buy a pair of 16s. My pair is home made and I have a k2 24kg. I did the ladder for the first time about aweek and a half ago and it was awesome. I have been doing sets of 50 swings with the 2 16s for a while, and just did the ladder twice so far. If anybody has a pair of 16s for sale let me know.
J
Posted by: johnwang Posted on: May 11th, 2008, 12:01pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I09-jQXNpA

If you have "fun" to play with weight then most likely you will keep doing that for the rest of your life. If you feel like serious work out and force yourself then soon or later you may quit.

It's very important that whenever you look at your weight such as KB, you feel "love" instead of "fear". This is the Chinese way and may not fit American culture "no pain no gain".

on May 11th, 2008, 11:12am, Baguabyrd wrote:
50 swings

I like to do 100 swing on my 35 lb KB. More rep and more speed than more weight.

By the way my elbow injury from my 90 lb throwing dummy is still not healed completely (almost 2 months now). That's one more good example that weight and speed don't go well together.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 1:36am
as I have a 26 lb kb in front of me right now, I'd say that kb circuit was actually done with like 15 lbs.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 1:49am
this one's 16 kg, 35.2 lbs


still not a 50 lber
Posted by: bailewen Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 1:55am
HOw much does this one weigh?


Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 6:10am
I met Jeff and Maureen probably 3 years ago at the Mass State Police Barracks in Revere when he was doing a seminar there with the Troopers. I wrote a short piece on his website about it.

Maureen is probably 5'5 or so, and very muscular. I hate to speculate on a womans weight, but I don't think it would be insulting to say she was over 100 pounds (in the healthiest way possible).

Jeff is atleast 6'3. THe bell he was using in the clip I posted was, i believe, a 45lb bell, and he tosses it like it's nothing. In the original h2h vid, I think he was using a 53. I watched him do a set of chinups cold with no prep while holding either a 70 or 88 lb bell (forget which now, sorry) with his INSTEP. He does the same trick with it clipped to a weight belt.

Wang Sifu, I can't find a clip comparable to the Stone Lock exercise you showed on Youtube, but there is a similar exercise taught. Do you have any idea the size of the man demonstrating that set, and the weight of the lock used?

Lewitt

PS- I jsut wanted to mention that Jeff Martone is not onely one of the most qualified instructors for Kettlebells, but also highly skilled in the modern Tactical arts. He was a full time instructor for the Department of Energy Tactical teams. More importantly however he is a Gentleman of the highest order. If you ever have the chance and really want to sort this KB thing out.... Take a seminar with him.

[TaoBoxer]

I snatched my 70 for reps the other nite for the first time. I love making progress!

I'm working a new drill with a friend of mine. I'm calling it a descending ladder. It's a circuit drill consisting of 5 techniques, Swings, Cleans, Military presses, squats and Renegade Rows (Renegade Row is basically like you're locked out at the top of a push-up, or Plank in Yoga with your hands on the bells. You then shift your weight to one side, and do a row with the opposite bell). This drill is done with 2 kettlebells:

First set is 5 reps of each technique with 35lb bells
Second set is 4 reps with 45s
third set is 3 reps with 53's
fourth set is 2 reps with 53's
fifth set is 1 rep with 70's

It's challanging... Goal of course is to add reps in each rung of the ladder, and then add rungs.

I feel that KB training is uniquely suited to CIMA practice. It teaches you structure, root, how to absorb and express force, and probably most importantly, whole body unity.

One of my other favorite drills is to take 2 53's.... Press tem over head..... Then walk the circle, do 9 palace, bamboo stepping, etc. When your arms give out, you let the bells drop to the "rack" position on your chest..... then when that gives out.... you drop them to a "suitcase carry." It's super tough.

Lewitt

[johnwang]

I can't find a clip comparable to the Stone Lock exercise you showed on Youtube, but there is a similar exercise taught. Do you have any idea the size of the man demonstrating that set, and the weight of the lock used?
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I believe it's less than 30 lb.

Here is another example, my double head is only 120 lb. Try to swing the double head like this with 200 lb weight then you can feel what weight + speed can do more harm than good to your body.

http://johnswang.com/moving_swing.wmv

[Dale Dugas]

Shifu Wang,

That was poetry in motion.

[Chris Fleming]

That was great! I'll try that some time. Can't at the gym though! Doing a barbell side press is strange enough for most people at Golds.

[SitYodTong]

I love my kettlebells--but if you're looking for a cheap (or space-saving) alternative, check out Kettlestacks.com. They are plate-loading kb handles and IMHP are by far the best adjustable KB's out there. The owner/fabricator, Clay,also seems like a hell of a nice guy--sent me one of Mike Mahler's KB dvd's for free when I ordered a second Kettlestack a few years ago!

However, I am surpirsed more IMA folks haven't picked up Clubbells. They are really great for working circular motion, and most of the drills allow you to engage your whole body in multiple planes of motion. I have 15 lb one that I use all the time.

[Kaitain]

I don't like clubbells - there's very little that they offer that I can't do within a KB workout, but the reverse is not true. I stopped using them after about 6 months and just stuck with the kb routines.

Love those uppercut/overhand drills - can only do them with the 16KG at the moment, but am improving fast now I realised I was shrugging into them. The overhand drill is great throwing practice as well

[CaliG]

However, I am surpirsed more IMA folks haven't picked up Clubbells. They are really great for working circular motion, and most of the drills allow you to engage your whole body in multiple planes of motion. I have 15 lb one that I use all the time.

I agree I like clubbells and clubbell like exercises, but I think like we've mentioned before with doing exercises using our own body weight that it just comes down to your own preference.

I do body weight type exercises at the grappling gym too and sometimes do clubbell type stuff with a body bar, but I haven't found anything as enjoyable as playing with the KBs and slamming the medicine ball (perhaps it has something to do with speed) but the thing that blows my mind about the KBs is that the things you can do with them are endless.

Here's an example of how the exercises apply to Judo. There's another one on youtube where the guy hold the KBs up in a boxer's guard when doing the presses so that you always keep your hands up even when your tired. It just seems like you can't go wrong with these things and also they don't make the muscles tense like dumbbells.

[TaoBoxer]

Swings, Cleans, Snatches, Presses and the Turkish Get Up are enough to make you ridiculously strong make you a monster fighter.

The bells are probably the most versatile thing out there for strength and endurance training...


lewitt

[Eisenhans]

Aren't clubbells a bit like the Chiishi of OKinawan Karate? If so, it's basically a traditional South Chinese weight training device, right?

Yeah, I also wonder why not more people train with them (at least for a while). I guess chrome plates and mirrors are better for the mainstream crowd

[Mike Strong]

The Turkish Get Up is one of the ones I do, ...

... I've got Mace Bells on my wish list though.

[somatai]

i love clubs as well as kettles.....but agree clubs have a unique virtue to them

[fuga]

Aren't clubbells a bit like the Chiishi of OKinawan Karate? If so, it's basically a traditional South Chinese weight training device, right?

Yeah, I also wonder why not more people train with them (at least for a while). I guess chrome plates and mirrors are better for the mainstream crowd

I thought that the clubs originated in Indian wrestling pits, rather than okinawan karate. I have a nice DVD The Physical Body: Indian Wrestling and Physical Culture which demonstrates a number of exercises with clubs of various sizes. One of the clubs on the cover of the DVD is taller than the wrestler. I personally work with both kettlebells and clubs. Both are great training tools.

-pete

[nianfong]

the kendo guys use a weighted bokken to train with. baseball players put those donuts around their bats.
chinese use long poles. all similar concepts.

[Eisenhans]

Aren't clubbells a bit like the Chiishi of OKinawan Karate? If so, it's basically a traditional South Chinese weight training device, right?

Yeah, I also wonder why not more people train with them (at least for a while). I guess chrome plates and mirrors are better for the mainstream crowd

I thought that the clubs originated in Indian wrestling pits, rather than okinawan karate. I have a nice DVD The Physical Body: Indian Wrestling and Physical Culture which demonstrates a number of exercises with clubs of various sizes. One of the clubs on the cover of the DVD is taller than the wrestler. I personally work with both kettlebells and clubs. Both are great training tools.

-pete

I didn't say they ORIGINATE form Karate - it's just where I met them first, and since the Karate on Okinawa is heavily influenced by Southern Chinese styles and stuff.... the origin may have been India, Pakistan or Persia, afaik (then again, it really doesn't take a genius to figure out that heavy clubs/maces = difficult to move = good training)