the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

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Bhassler wrote:I haven't gone back to them because I feel I can get a better workout and a workout that's more relevant to MA with Pilates.

If you use KB just to build muscle then that's no different from any other weight training that you do in the gym. If you use KB to enhance your MA skill then you will get better benefit out of it. When I work out on my push up and sit up, I don't have any MA intent but when I work out on my equipment I do. Speed is always important in CMA equipmant training.

If you look at these 2 clips, you will see that the guy was working with "maximum speed". Also the path that his moving pattern is the same as he will use in combat.

http://johnswang.com/sc15.wmv

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

Dragging this thread out of obscurity... I got a KB a few weeks ago and have been playing around with some different stuff (and I learned a lot from everybody's comments on this thread, thanks all). Anyway, I was wondering what the more experienced KB players think about this article/video (claiming that the Long Cycle C&J is the best and only KB exercise for fighters); I'm usually a bit skeptical of these "magic pill" type claims so I'm curious what others think. I've tried the exercise (with a 16, not a 24 as he recommends) and it is indeed hard...

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/blog/?p=29

Bhassler wrote:I picked up a set of kettlebells and played with them a bit, and I thought it was pretty easy. Honestly, I haven't gone back to them because I feel I can get a better workout and a workout that's more relevant to MA with Pilates. Of course, I'm a Pilates instructor, so I know how to do things that your typical Pilates enthusiast doesn't (and to be quite honest a lot of Pilates instructors don't either). The moral of the story? It's not so much the system as the person doing it. I wonder if any of us here have heard that before...

If you thought they were easy, you weren't using them corectly. Pilates is a fantastic workout--I am a longtime yoga practicioner myself--but KB's are a unique discipline. There are also few implements that combine acceleration, deceleration, balance, stability, and impact training as well as kettlebells--and all of those things are pretty important in combat.

josh wrote:Dragging this thread out of obscurity... I got a KB a few weeks ago and have been playing around with some different stuff (and I learned a lot from everybody's comments on this thread, thanks all). Anyway, I was wondering what the more experienced KB players think about this article/video (claiming that the Long Cycle C&J is the best and only KB exercise for fighters); I'm usually a bit skeptical of these "magic pill" type claims so I'm curious what others think. I've tried the exercise (with a 16, not a 24 as he recommends) and it is indeed hard...

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/blog/?p=29

That is Scott Sonnon, who trains quite a few martial artists and is a very skilled sambo practicioner himself. I highly recommend his Bodyflow books/DVDs--they really mesh well with internal MA training.

As far as a "magic pill", the long cycle C&J isn't--which is fine, as it's not meant to be used exclusively but as part of a larger program. It is a very useful exercise though, and a staple in my KB work.

It's a good program. I don't see how it is any better than snatches or swings, but what works, works.

SitYodTong wrote:
That is Scott Sonnon, who trains quite a few martial artists and is a very skilled sambo practicioner himself. I highly recommend his Bodyflow books/DVDs--they really mesh well with internal MA training.

As far as a "magic pill", the long cycle C&J isn't--which is fine, as it's not meant to be used exclusively but as part of a larger program. It is a very useful exercise though, and a staple in my KB work.

Thanks for the reply. I have seen a few of Sonnon's videos and I think that there is definitely some good stuff in there, which is what drew me to this article. I only called it a "magic pill" because he seems to be suggesting that this particular exercise is in fact enough on its own, and that was the part of the article that I was particularly curious about.

...I suggest the one-arm 24kg kettlebell Long Cycle Clean and Jerk (LCCJ) - which is a clean followed by a jerk back to a clean again - as the primary if not exclusive exercise for competitive fighters

All KB skills are in the LCCJ. If we perfect it, everything else is just elementary. Too many acrobatic kettlebell juggling suggestion. Stick to this basic.

The problem with KB right now is that they are catching on.... Lots of strength coaches out there trying to convince people they have the unique answer to all the training mysteries. One of my friends calls this "kinesiology voodoo," the perfect combination of intensity, cycling, reps, etc.... When the tsimple truth is that lifting heavy things a lot makes you strong. I have been working out seriously with the bells for a while now and I do most of my lifts with a 70lb bell. If you had to choose 3 lifts that would make your kung fu better, I'd go with the Turkish Get up, the Renegade Row, and 1 high rep drill (snatch, swing, or clean and press). Those 3 will cure most of your weakness within a few months.

Lewitt

I've seen clips of Sonnon doing his flow/yoga routines, and have to admit, the man moves really really well. But I get confused as which of his programs to start with or use: Flowfit, Prasara, Bodyflow, etc. etc. etc.?

Those of you with experience with Sonnon's stuff have any recs? What do you/don't you like?

Regarding the lccj: I can see his reasoning, in that whole "if you must do ONLY one exercise and it MUST use a kettlebell" kind of way. But no exercise is totally complete. I can see using the LCCJ as the core and building a circuit around that exercise, e.g., inserting sets of LCCJs in between sets of various bodyweight exercises and/or other KB work.

SitYodTong wrote:

josh wrote:Dragging this thread out of obscurity... I got a KB a few weeks ago and have been playing around with some different stuff (and I learned a lot from everybody's comments on this thread, thanks all). Anyway, I was wondering what the more experienced KB players think about this article/video (claiming that the Long Cycle C&J is the best and only KB exercise for fighters); I'm usually a bit skeptical of these "magic pill" type claims so I'm curious what others think. I've tried the exercise (with a 16, not a 24 as he recommends) and it is indeed hard...

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/blog/?p=29

That is Scott Sonnon, who trains quite a few martial artists and is a very skilled sambo practicioner himself. I highly recommend his Bodyflow books/DVDs--they really mesh well with internal MA training.

As far as a "magic pill", the long cycle C&J isn't--which is fine, as it's not meant to be used exclusively but as part of a larger program. It is a very useful exercise though, and a staple in my KB work.

Just got my first 88. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhh

Lewitt

Thanks for all the responses, I'm going to try mixing this in to my routine and see how it works!

I've seen clips of Sonnon doing his flow/yoga routines, and have to admit, the man moves really really well. But I get confused as which of his programs to start with or use: Flowfit, Prasara, Bodyflow, etc. etc. etc.?

I have the same problem, the man definitely knows how to market his stuff, but there seems to be a lot of overlap between these products. "Warrior Wellness" was the one recommended to me as a starting point.

TaoBoxer wrote:Just got my first 88. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhh

Lewitt

TaoBoxer wrote:Just got my first 88. Ohhhhhhhhhhhh yeahhhhhhhh

Lewitt

Oh yeah indeed. It has been my experience that if you do, say, clean and jerks with a heavy bell like an 88 (or in my case, an 80), doing Sonnon's actual program with a 24k bell will not be hard at all. More like boring. Here's what it's about: lift heavy weights. I'll say it again, lift heavy weights. I'm not talking about bodybuilding, I'm talking about strength training. It's not going to make you slow. It's not going to destroy your fluidity or internal power. Power lifters look the way they do (huge) because they want their bodies to look that way for various reasons (usually leverage). BUT, some power lifters have demonstrated their skill in being able to slam dunk a basketball too. How much more so should be the skill of someone who does martial arts. Once again:

Lift.

Heavy.

Weights.

Yeah..... If you can do a double clean and press, double swing, or double snatch with 70's or 88's what can you do without them?? Move fluidly? Maintain a good frame when recieving force or issuing power? Root strongly while under stress? It all sounds usefull to me. And it's not about getting all jacked. This guy Valery Fedorenko doesn't look like anything special at all, but he can clean a 70lb bell with his pinky and press 2 53lb bells in 1 hand.

I never used to believe this, but strength isn't just about being strong.... It really is a learned skill.

Lewitt

More like strength is not about being BIG and muscley but being strong.