How arms are used in TJQ Push-hands

[LaoDan]

I was judging TJQ forms at the Kuoshu tournament last week, and in between competitor groups a fellow judge asked me how long I had been studying Taijiquan and if I practiced push-hand. When I said that I loved push-hands he invited me to engage with him. As soon as we touched I began to use the pengjin in my arms to begin rotating my ‘sphere’ to increase my positional advantages over him, but he stopped me saying that I was using too much force and that I should be more yin. I disagreed and mentioned that I was maintaining my spherical energy that could either rotate or rebound energy and that his arms were lacking pengjin. He stated that I was too yang and thus could already be push out and would not have time to rotate. I stated that he was already vulnerable to being struck. So when he suddenly pushed me, I struck him.

Since we were fellow judges at the tournament and in our assigned competition ring, and since we appeared to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement about how the arms should be used in TJQ, I said that we could continue later; but due to the judging schedules, etc., we were unable to hook up to discuss our approaches or to test each other further.

This brings up a philosophical difference in how the arms should be used in TJQ PH, and I am looking for other forum member’s perspectives on this. Note: I did not have differing opinions about how the legs and torso were being used, sensitivity, etc., only how the arms were used.

There seems to be an approach to PH, especially from Yang stylists (my fellow judge is from China and had studied Yang style regularly with Zhang Yuliang in Beijing apparently for eight years beginning in 2000, and presumably on his own and with his students over the last four years in the USA, having the resources to be able to devote time to practicing TJQ since he was not working at a job during this time) of training extreme yin with their contact, and apparently switching to extreme yang for their pushing in order to produce the desired speed to theoretically push someone less yin out before they are able to respond. I’ll call this approach ‘extreme yin alternating with extreme yang’ [or simplified to ‘yin alternating with yang’] which adheres to the principle of extreme yin being able to produce extreme yang.

On the other hand, the approach that I take is to maintain pengjin in the arms (under the principle that proper structure produced by pengjin is what allows one to relax) in order to create spherical energy to the point of contact, which when rotated produces both yin and yang energies simultaneously at the point of contact (lets call this approach yin+yang). To me, the arms should be used as an extension of the body and should produce the same spherical energy of the torso when in contact with an opponent (producing the simultaneous yin and yang of the taiji diagram).

To me, if you do not respect the opponent’s ability to strike you, then perhaps you can play the ‘yin alternating with yang’ game with the arms, but if you do respect the opponent’s ability to strike you, then the arms should have pengjin. Since I do not play the ‘yin alternating with yang’ game, I do not know what their experiences are, but I suspect that with someone playing the same game as them, perhaps the opponent would not be able to strike in time because they need to change from extreme yin to yang in order to do so. In the yin+yang approach, since you have simultaneous yin & yang, the yang potential is already established and thus I was able to strike when pushed.

Please provide your thoughts on these two different approaches, or any other approaches that you practice or have experienced.

Dan

[charles]

Such a discussion is doomed to failure for a variety of reasons. The first and foremost is that you will not get agreement on what "peng jin" is, let alone how it should be manifest and applied. The discussion then becomes trying to hit a moving target. Second, you know what you felt and experienced in the other judge and vice versa; none of us do: we only have the words you are using to try to describe what both you and he do. Words can mean many things to many people, even when the same words are being used. Thus, it becomes a discussion of semantics, of abstractions, when it really needs to be two people feeling each other and testing things out that way, and not much really needs to be said or vocalized since each has the immediacy of the experience.

The right way is the way that works, not just in the limited format of push hands practice, but beyond that. And, different things work for different people and in different circumstances; there isn't necessarily a single way that is "right" and others "wrong". I've felt people who where "yang" and people who were "yin". With sufficient skill, both can work. From your description you are doing "yang" and he is doing "yin", predominantly. Only the two of you, who experienced each other's abilities, knows which of you is better at your chosen approaches.

All that said, I understand that this is a discussion board and all that one can do is "discuss"....

"How many Taiji practitioners does it take to change a light bulb?"

"100. One to change the light bulb and 99 to say, 'Oh, we do it differently in our school.'" -;)

[daniel pfister]

Hi Dan, Daniel here,

I have essentially practiced both PH methods which you have described. I have written on these 2 methods as well as an additional 3, and have grouped them using the 5 elements paradigm. (That's not relevant to your questions, but if you'd like to know more please PM me.)

I refer to your yang+yin method as the "structural" approach. It is good for building power especially if you are practicing with someone else who is doing the same thing. I generally associate this method with the Yang Cheng-fu's form as the arms tend to stay out from the body.

The other method you've described I would probably call the "fluid" approach. I have actually found this method is quite useful for striking as the less structured formations of the arms and the lighter touch seem to enable one to respond with quick successive strikes. This method doesn't really develop structured power as well the other one, so it isn't as good for pushing people, cars, or whatever. When people only learn this method, and then try to push people in a competitive environment with rules, they usually end up just shoving people as they haven't really developed any skills to move someone heavy.

Although they may not realize it, the more light and relaxed arms are better for quick strikes than structured arms that require some intent to keep in place, yet, due to the state of Taijiquan these days, most practitioners remain completely unaware of this, and, as you've noticed, don't even think that they might be hit.

[LaoDan]

Yea, I normally take a ‘live and let live’ approach to differences and recognize that different approaches do not necessarily mean that one is wrong and another right; thus we have different styles of TJQ that are all of value.

I guess that I took offence somewhat at his insistence that I was wrong and needed to be more yin (more his way), and that my approach would not be able to work against his method.

But the two approaches do point to different philosophical interpretations of the taiji diagram and how it relates to the practice of TJQ.

Dan

[daniel pfister]

But the two approaches do point to different philosophical interpretations of the taiji diagram and how it relates to the practice of TJQ.

In my mind, both approaches are working different energies or skills. Both being important to a complete picture of Tai Chi. Hopefully we can get to a more comprehensive view of TJQ someday.

[GrahamB]

The problem with push hands is that outside tournaments there's absolutely no common agreement on what it is. Clips like the Chen xiowang vs Xingyi guy spring to mind...

[Bao]

Tingjin is much, much more important than maintaining Pengjin. To maintain excellent tingjin, your touch need to be very light. The trouble with pengjin (in the arms) is that if you add to much pressure against your opponent, you will loose your tingjin. Your best sensativity is on the top of skin, not in the muscles or on the bone. So you really need a very light touch. To maintain a very light touch, you need to be very relaxed, so you can follow him withour adding to much pressure. If you add to much pressure, you will numb your skin and loose your tingjin.

The most excellent push hands practitioners I have met and played against are the softest ones. My first and main teacher is so relaxed that he appear limp. But his sensativity is so excellent that if try to defend yourself with anything that feels like a solid structure=pengjin he will feel your root and throw you away. The trouble is just like this, that your pengjin will connect your hand to your feet, so a sensitive person can feel your root. So pengjin should never be exposed, never be felt be your opponent if you don't allready have im on his toes, on his heels, or you use it as a last resort to defend yourself with. Never give your opponent anything like a solid structure to pull or push against.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Well I think the yang+yin approach is better. When I started being able to maintain peng jin in my arms I noticed that I was able to defend against strikes more easily and that it reduced reaction time, because the muscles seem to be primed to move at a moments notice.

Also from my understanding extreme yin becomes yang when you are so relaxed that your movements become powerful seemingly without effort. If you consciously try to switch to extreme yang it sounds like you would become tense and tight, but I may be wrong.

[daniel pfister]

Think of the two styles like this: One is a whip, the other a battering ram. When a whip moves not all parts of it are moving in the same direction at the same time, so we can't say it has structure, but it has a snappy-shocking power useful for strikes and closing distance, but I wouldn't try to break down a door with it. For that you'd want the structure of a battering ram. Both have their uses, Taijiquan is all about balancing the different energies we are able to manifest.

[LaoDan]

Thanks everyone for being so open minded.

Bao, I actually agree somewhat with your described viewpoint which seems to describe well the approach taken by many practitioners (and likely the approach taken by my fellow judge), and I practice that way to some degree, but there is a comparable response for the ‘yin+yang’ approach. I do think, however, that both approaches can have comparable levels of tingjin.

With the properly inflated sphere (‘yin+yang’) approach, you want to have your sphere able to rotate freely so that the opponent cannot land on your center. They can feel the structure of the inflated sphere, but have difficulty controlling it. The pressure comes from their contact, not your resistance to their contact. If you resist, then you have the fault of being too yang. If you maintain both yin and yang, then the opponent should not be able to land precisely on your center and you can freely deflect their energy away (e.g. like a properly inflated ball floating on the water surface), or to rotate in order to strike. A slack ball floating on water does not have this ability since the incoming energy collapses the ball and prevents it from rotating.

I personally think that both approaches have value.

Dan

[Kevin_Wallbridge]

If he can't steal your balance with his method then he has no business criticizing your approach. If he can be a cloud and still toss you around, listen to him. Otherwise he is just proselytizing a religion, because if its not in his personal experience or ability he is merely spouting a theory.

One approach I learned in Yang style is use relaxation to find structure. Create Beng by doing Song. Allow force to build up without being forceful. Maintain your structure and release into your legs to open space with the arms. I've touched plenty of "pudding" people who said I used too much force because they couldn't stop me from displacing them, but not one of them could stand up toe to toe and sanshou. That being said I once pushed with Zhong Dazhen/Tchong Ta Chen who was and soft and subtle as mist, yet when he came forward it was like pushing with a large truck.

[charles]

If he can't steal your balance with his method then he has no business criticizing your approach. If he can be a cloud and still toss you around, listen to him. Otherwise he is just proselytizing a religion, because if its not in his personal experience or ability he is merely spouting a theory.

Thank you. That was, essentially, the point I was trying to make, but better expressed.

The most skilled practitioners I have met have been very, very soft. Perhaps the most skilled was a Yang stylist of the Tung/Dong lineage - a student of Tung senior. One never felt more than the touch of his skin on yours. As soon as you touched him, you had no balance. Forget trying to push or hit him - you only stayed on your feet as long as he allowed you to. He played with you like a rag doll. There was never any resistance, only the touch of his skin on yours. He believed fa jin was a brute-level skill - why would you bother hitting someone if you could completely control them and they could muster no threat? It was like trying to push on air.

Other skilled practitioners I've met had a greater "presence", but could still manipulate you like a rag doll.

Proof is in the pudding, not in the description of what pudding might be like or ought to be like.

[Bao]

Bao, I actually agree somewhat with your described viewpoint which seems to describe well the approach taken by many practitioners (and likely the approach taken by my fellow judge), and I practice that way to some degree, but there is a comparable response for the ‘yin+yang’ approach. I do think, however, that both approaches can have comparable levels of tingjin.
... They can feel the structure of the inflated sphere, but have difficulty controlling it. The pressure comes from their contact, not your resistance to their contact. If you resist, then you have the fault of being too yang. If you maintain both yin and yang, then the opponent should not be able to land precisely on your center and you can freely deflect their energy away (e.g. like a properly inflated ball floating on the water surface), or to rotate in order to strike. A slack ball floating on water does not have this ability since the incoming energy collapses the ball and prevents it from rotating.

Balancing structure and softness is the most delicate challenge.
Trusting relaxation and give up all unecessary structure and pressure is the hardest task.
Giving up your "thinking" and just react to what happen demands true braveness.

I don't believe that balancing yin and yang is the most important. I believe more in creating yang through an excess of yin. "use relaxation to find structure." As K.W. says. First you must really, really understand what extreme softness is. Then you create structure with this softness. I think that we should have an idea of the sphere and pengjin, but practicing excellent tingjin and softness will lead to great timing. If you can neutralize the direction of his intention as soon as he touch you or try to reach you, there will be no need for letting him feel your pengjin or sphere.

Proof is in the pudding, not in the description of what pudding might be like or ought to be like.

Lol! Very well said.
And I agree that tai chi practitioners can feel very different when you play with them.

.....
Many good posts here and a lot of food for thinking. Thanks everyone.

[johnwang]

when he suddenly pushed me, I struck him.

Even in "sport" wrestling, when you get hold on your opponent, if he can punch/kick you, your holding method is wrong. It's important to understand "effective contact points". How can his pushing give you a chance for you to strike him? Where were his arms position related to your arms when he pushes you?

If his right hand is on your right wrist, his left hand is on your right elbow, when he pushed, he can make your right leading arm to jam your left back arm. None of your arms will be able to punch you at that moment.

[windwalker]

One could make the argument that in taiji, the arms are not used, the whole body is the hand..
we use what I call yi peng,,,,meaning that you have the idea of a sphere but its one in your mind that changes as needed.

Your both right,,only in different ways, its a matter of level and what ones teachers level was.
4 levels,,,

bone (use of structure)
skin (use of mind)
hair (much higher level)
air ( BTD material)

many people develop and stop at the idea of structure, which means that their push hands is based on feeling the bone, or muscle movement / pressure....in these types of practices people practice to see how much force their structure can support, this is okay as long as they can really empty themselves which most can not do....because their practice is based on a body level of awareness.
The most common error of this group is to use their structure to over come the other, which leads to force on force.

Those that practice with a mind level (skin) they will feel very soft and light,,,their reactions are based on really feeling the emptiness and fullness of ones intent..this means that they rely on the mind, but must have passed through the understanding and usage of the first level. Those that use the skin level,,will tend to not have any direct lines of force,,as what there pushing or working with is the others mind through the medium of skin contact..they will feel very light and have the ability to unbalance or steal ones balance at first touch...

The most common error of this group is one of collapsing,,they intuitively understand what to do, but their body has not really been trained to follow their minds yet,

style, teacher, ones own depth of skill and experience all play into the understanding of this,,,we can say the proof is in the pudding as they say,,,the problem with this is that if ones skill level is not deep enough or developed enough,,its very easy to get caught into thinking that the beginning level of development is the last level of achivment.,