Traditional Internal training-does it transfer to MMA

[Bodywork]

I have been thinking about this lately as I continue to meet more ICMA folks. I saw no end of posts by people here like John Wang more or less slamming the idea of internal power up against live throwing arts like shuai chiao, Judo and BJJ. The tone was always more or less that internal people would end up on their heads...again and again. As most know I took umbridge to that idea. It is my experience that internal training transfers well into a live environment if you train and practice that way. Moreover, not only will it work well but that it can be a great *advantage* if trained correctly, and more still where strikes are allowed.
Brady, who just started training in grappling arts came out to play here and see if he could find some revelvance to his game. What I didn't know is that he was starting training in Xing-I as well. He offered some opinions on both and I thought it worth discussing. So here you have a guy with experience in grappling exploring Xing-i, Taiji, and Japanese internal training and offering some opinions on the continued relevance of internal power training today toa grapplers game.
Thoughts?

My MA luck lately
by Brady on Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:24 pm

So in the past couple weeks I've had so much good fortune in my MA training that I felt I needed to share it. All this has reinspired me and I'm training about 4 hours a day and becoming somewhat of a recluse.

First, I'm off of my summer break from Judo and our club has thinned down to the me and the only 3 guys who I have trouble sparring . . . meaning I'm getting my ass kicked substantially more (thus quicker learning) and my coach is able to pay alot more attention to our individual difficulties. All 4 of us have been training around 3 years and are starting to be a factor in the black belt division of some of the big local tourneys. The stealing step throw and upper body kuzushi is finally starting to come a bit more naturally to me and I feel like I'm on the verge of a breakthrough if I can keep up my current momemtum.

Secondly, I started taking xinyi luihei (sp?) classes from a extremely skilled Chinese guy once a week. Derek (1palm) introduced me and I couldn't be more excited. The low chicken step and bizarre shenfa is some of the more demanding single man work I've yet done and I gained a new appreciation for the youtube videos I've seen. Derek has been accelerated into learning some really interesting step cadences and hand flows but I'm still struggling with the basic long lower basin stepping for hours on end. Plus, the teacher Mr. Pung showed me some Judo applications of the system and I'm excited to gain some proficiency and be able to really drop my level and explode hard from a sufficient distance. We learn at the same time as Marin (Mo-ling) teaches Taichi, and he is our translator. Very nice guy and has some real skill that his students are definetly getting. I pushed hands with one of them and was surprised at the stance development and sneaky power he used to sit me on my ass a few times. Can't say I've felt taichi that I was so impressed with in the past.

Last, and perhaps what makes me most excited is that yesterday I finally made the drive out to see Dan Harden who is an absolute badass beyond my high expectations. His strikes from both stand up and groundwork were some of the most powerful relaxed hits I've felt and I'd shudder to be on the wrong side of an actual 100% effort by him. Besides his obvious martial skill he's a really engaging guy who really wants to teach and is very tactile and explicit with what he is going for. His students do not look big compared to some Judo guys I fight but all of them have developed a frame that makes me feel like an utter noob with hardly any skill. I'm just dissapointed I didn't make the trip out to meet him at an earlier time.

So with these new developments and my continual training with Derek (who is improving at a scary enough rate that I can't ever seem to remotely catch up) I have so much gongfu around me I don't know what to do with myself. I think I've seen the last days that I'm not sore for quite some time though and I couldn't be happier. Cheers to good training!
-Brady

[Chris Fleming]

Here we go again...

[Josealb]

It would be a real treat if Brady later on gives an update on exactly what IMA trained skill enhanced which aspect of his Judo game. Or vice versa.

[Bodywork]

Well you lost me Chris. Is it too BTDT? From talking with Derek and Brady we thought it interesting and informative in comparing notes. Not the least of which was being in a room with teachers and students of Aikido, Daito ryu, Taiji, Bagua, judo, BJJ etc. Discovering and talking with diverse arts sharing internal components is a good thing IME.

[bailewen]

Keep keepin' the faith Dan.

I try to stay out of the internal/external debate. I have very clear ideas about what constitutes "internal" work and try to keep focused on that. Nevertheless, I have still found really useful stuff in John Wang's posts along with a few (not many) others. For my money, internal skill is just something that can be layered on top of (or inside of) any other skill.

From the Judo and Shuai Jiao guys I learned the dangers of crossing your feet (judo especially) and the importance of single leg balance (SJ especially). I don't see how either of these principles creates any tension at all with internal principles.

Got more to say but no time. I have a taiji for health class to teach in about 10 minutes. Something it seems like is a mark of shame here on the interwebs. Gonna have to go hang my head in embarrassment while I direct my deadly fighting skills towards the enemies known as back pain and weak knees. toodle-loo.

[Dmitri]

(Come on Chris give it a rest... think about the purpose of your post and what it is trying to achieve...? )

The general public will continue to disregard IMA as a viable method until they see an IMA guy winning in UFC type tournament.
(In that sense, I for one don't give a shit about what general public thinks in that respect.)

Those who actually do care to explore and research with the (very few) folks who can actually do this sort of work -- always (at least IME) come back with some positive experience and new perspectives for their training, or at the very least gain some appreciation of these methods.

The specificity of IMA training methods attracts certain type of people who, at least as a rule IME, seem to not be interested in actual fighting much, -- and vice versa, the "fighting types" are in general mostly interested in more direct training methods (muai thay, bjj, judo, etc.) and have little patience or interest in IMA training methods.
The overlap, where a person is interested in both fighting and in the IMA methods (and has access to a good IMA teacher, which is a rarity in itself), is incredibly rare, statistically.

So the answer to the question "whether it transfers to MMA" is the same as that to a question of whether light is a wave or a particle... it's sort'a both.

[Bodywork]

It would be a real treat if Brady later on gives an update on exactly what IMA trained skill enhanced which aspect of his Judo game. Or vice versa.

I agree, though it would be just as interesting were he to remain eclectic in his search and see what he can get from Taiji, Bagua and the Japanese side of things and not stick to just one. All in all, It appears that more are picking up on -at least the idea - of IMA and the very real power they bring to a grapplers game. Cartmell's been advocating it for a while. I had dismissed the CMA for years, until discovering for myself the internal components that spoke to my own previous pursuits. I think its a positve step all around.

[Chris Fleming]

(Come on Chris give it a rest... think about the purpose of your post and what it is trying to achieve...? )

Then let the standards be the same.

It's just that it's so BTDT. Of course IMA transfers to MMA. People would do well to train in IMA. Dan is so set that all kinds of people come here, to an internal martial arts forum and yet bash the internal arts at the same time. I don't see this happening at all. Guy's like John Wang are against the limp-noodle tai cheee people who claim to be fighters (who never even spar in the first place), not against people who use their training to be able to fight with it. And, I don't have to even say that most people do MMA because they are young and want to fight NOW, and not learn something like taiji which would benefit them, just not on the first day of their lessons. IMA takes time. We all know this. Would it help them? Certainly. Is all this worth making up some kind of crusade over? Nope.

Really, Dan, what do you want? Everyone to take up Daito Ryu?

[shawnsegler]

I miss JW. He brought balance to the force.

I bet if JW and Larry came back we could get Meynard talking again and produce some real dynamic tension up in this bitch.

S- sad for the old days sometimes

[Bodywork]

(Come on Chris give it a rest... think about the purpose of your post and what it is trying to achieve...? )

Then let the standards be the same.

It's just that it's so BTDT. Of course IMA transfers to MMA. People would do well to train in IMA. Dan is so set that all kinds of people come here, to an internal martial arts forum and yet bash the internal arts at the same time. I don't see this happening at all. Guy's like John Wang are against the limp-noodle tai cheee people who claim to be fighters (who never even spar in the first place), not against people who use their training to be able to fight with it. And, I don't have to even say that most people do MMA because they are young and want to fight NOW, and not learn something like taiji which would benefit them, just not on the first day of their lessons. IMA takes time. We all know this. Would it help them? Certainly. Is all this worth making up some kind of crusade over? Nope.

Really, Dan, what do you want? Everyone to take up Daito Ryu?

I don't do Daito ryu.
The standards are the same are they not? I don't know where you've been, but three years of reading here have produced a ton of material either bashing or seriousy questioning the effectiveness of internal training. More and more fellas are getting out and about exploring and seeing the value all around.
I think its worth just as much time talking about the positve aspects of these ancient principles and how they speak for themselves across the board, as it was in reading thread after thread, post after post, discussing MMA and the UFC, and quitting Internal training because it didn't work....and of it in this section of the board index.
So yes, after maybe a couple hundred positive posts about internal training being able to kick ass -it will be the same standard.

[shawnsegler]

So, I was rereading my old copy of Robert Smiths bagua book while I was system restoring my computer and was intrigued to reread the following quote from Kuo Feng Chih about internal work which I think answers the problematic component of this particular dilemma.

Boxing masters instruct their students to learn boxing by the following the three requirements mentioned above: Softness (relaxation) Slowness (prolongation of posture) and Evenness (of action and breathing). With these mastered, a pormising embryo for learning Internal Boxing is formed

I think what happens is when lumping internal and external arts together we tend to concentrate on tenet number one of internal arts (softness and relaxation) which is really the number one tenet of all the arts and say...look, they're the same.

But when you look at the fine motor parts of the internal engine you also have slowness which most cats who are really into sport fighting disdain (IME, of course), mostly due to I think a lot of negative feedback as to the efficacy of putting in a long term goal of gaining the benefits of internal work over, well...it takes a long time. Easier to be technique based if you're going into the ring tommorow. Plus, willpower based exercises are a pain in the ass (read kung fu) and if you aren't inclined to do them, it's easy to call them ridiculous, because...once again because, they're a pain in the ass.

Thirdly "evenness" this is the basis of posture holding combined with movement. Cultivating evenness and fluidity as it is taught in most martial arts requires a shift in the fluidity of your thinking which in my experience is greatly helped by keeping it as close to "play" as possible and considering it as a pure movement exercise. That shit is hindered by constantly re-referring it to technique up to a certain point. It's also the basis for very fine muscular control that you will most likely not get unless you are born with it or train for it...if you train for it, you just might get it. But, once again, why would you take years to learn how to control the compression of your body and all that stuff if your time would be better served beefing up for a constant short term goal.

Both styles have validity, but it will require a huge shift in most MMA guys viewpoints before it happens...maybe when a couple of people who have made that long term commitment decide to go into MMA and do well...but that's a tiny percentage of the demographic of humankind fo sho.

My 2c.

S

[Darthwing Teorist]

I miss JW. He brought balance to the force.

I bet if JW and Larry came back we could get Meynard talking again and produce some real dynamic tension up in this bitch.

S- sad for the old days sometimes

Well, you have Ian balancing the force.

[shawnsegler]

JW=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than Ian

[Brady]

Well I am not really sure why my opinion is valued here, but I do enjoy exploring different ways of viewing the martial and find that keeping an open mind and eclectic training schedule helps balance out my practice and speed up the learning curve.

I've always found that the way I train Judo (win first--grace and body method later) to be in tension with the more internal approaches that I love training (develop the frame and sensitivity and let winning handle itself). For example, this week we've restarted Judo club and find myself struggling against sore tight muscles and my body's desire to collapse onto itself. I'm cognizant of this tensing response all the time now while practicing and sparring and much of my work is in an attempt to reason with myself to let go and tap into the "flow" so as to minimize the amount of tune up work I need to do the day after. I find myself doing a lot more work with Dan's methods and similar things I've been exposed to just to keep myself feeling light on the feet and solid within my base. Ideally, and perhaps well down the road for me, these two seemingly contrasting training styles will gel and I'll be able to handle the stresses of randori while maintaining the basic body requirements I believe are integral to IMA. Right now though, I have stick-your-ass-out and faux-tough-tight chest syndrome ingrained in every movement and its an absolute bitch to break these habits.

Until I reach the skill and body development necessary to bring IMA mechanics into free sparring, I'll continue to struggle to find a balance between body development and sparring to test my progress. When I'm training as much as I should I find that the benefits of IMA training to be obvious. The other day my coach, a 4th dan Judoka who is 50 lbs heavier than me, was struggling to deal with me in sparring. He was confused and asked what I had been training (he guessed Aikido) because he said he couldn't find my balance like he used to. I have no doubt this is due to internal training. Still, I can't manage to do a full turn your back twist without breaking structure in my lower back . . . I'm working almost exclusively with this now. As soon as I can keep my tailbone dropped and gain the twist around my spine I know my Judo technique will shoot through the roof. But to develop this ability while competition fighting requires 4 hours of mentally draining training a day.

Really, I do believe that if I were to take an extended break from Judo and train IMA all day long I'd be able to go back to Judo in a year or two and notice huge gains in ability. Dan pointed out I may come to the point I need to make this decision in the future. But this approach doesn't work for me now. I get antsy if I'm not banging around and lose much of my inspiration to train. Right now, I'm enjoying the challenge of melding two different approaches to the arts. I think if I can manage to do this while obtaining more ability in both Judo and IMA then I can really make leaps above the competition. Plus, training with Derek and Dan helps. I learn from getting my ass kicked and these guys are two people who make the internal shit work convincingly in free play.

edit: I just got bitched out by my teacher for browsing the intrawebs during class time . . . woops

[Darthwing Teorist]

JW=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than Ian

Give the guy a chance! By the time he gets to his retirement he may be a new JW.



I DO hope that JW decides to come back too.