Relaxation: Who really trusts it?

[dragontigerpalm]

Noodling also would seem to be very inefficient in a fight as it completely separates defense from offense.

[Bao]

Dancers know that they must learn to relax, singers know that they must learn to relax, actors know that they must learn to relax, acrobatics know that they must learn to relax, line dancers know that they must learn to relax, gymnasts know that they must learn to relax. For most people working with their bodies or voices, relaxing is something fundamental, simple and basic. It seems though that there are indeed some martial artists who does not understand to relax, or the value of it. But it is only "Internal" martial arts stylists who succeed to turn relaxation into something mystical and almost intellectually incomprehensive (. . . and are able to discuss it as a topic on an internet forum for eleven pages without getting somewhere . . .).

[shawnsegler]

Hehe. It's hilarious, isn't it.

S

[WILLIE]

[quote="Bao"]Dancers know that they must learn to relax, singers know that they must learn to relax, actors know that they must learn to relax, acrobatics know that they must learn to relax, line dancers know that they must learn to relax, gymnasts know that they must learn to relax. For most people working with their bodies or voices, relaxing is something fundamental, simple and basic. It seems though that there are indeed some martial artists who does not understand to relax, or the value of it. But it is only "Internal" martial arts stylists who succeed to turn relaxation into something mystical and almost intellectually incomprehensive (. . . and are able to discuss it as a topic on an internet forum for eleven pages without getting somewhere . . .).[/quote



cheers

[WILLIE]

"Noodling" is like a "sickness" in the same way that double weightedness or lack of differentiation between yin and yang. It's sort of the push hands equivalent of swinging wildly. It can work on a lesser skilled player because it's kind of random and unpredictable and is at least better than freezing up. It's a kind of "throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks" way of attempting to neutralize a push.

By way of comparison, one of the differences between a master chess player and a random amateur is that the master never makes a move that does not accomplish something. There are no wasted moves. In push hands it is the same. There should be no motion that does not accomplish something. Shifu has been on my case particularly over this issue recently. He pushes, I noodle, he adjusts and points out that, "Wow...that was like, 2 whole changes to neutralize my one single change." ie. It's really really slow. Noodling is flailing about for an answer to the "question" posed by the incoming jin. If you really understood the jin, there would be no need to noodle. You would just change once rather than a whole series of times.

That's my take on "noodling".

cheers

[WILLIE]

That's all well and good, but you forgot one little point: sometimes, the other guy is better than you.

WELL SAID

[bailewen]

noodleing is a sickness at first but then turn to a very high level skill.
concentrating only on structure is like having 10 people in the room at the same time all talking about different stuff and not 1 thing is clearly heard.

Pfft....who said anything about structure? I never mentioned structure.

[WILLIE]

in my opinion to understand and express tai chi chuan, bagua and hsing i you must understand and practice transitioning from soft to hard and hard to soft and changing anywhere in between.

i think the middle path might be necessary ...

before i started learning tai chi chuan i was not at sensitive to what the other person was doing and this was because i was tense and tight in the muscles in time i learned to soften up and now to a certain extent i can be anywhere in between depending on what is coming at me.

i have seen some ima people who i think are too soft and limp.

no i do not believe you can be too soft assuming that you are capable of being hard too.

cheers

[Bao]

Dancers know that they must learn to relax, singers know that they must learn to relax, actors know that they must learn to relax, acrobatics know that they must learn to relax, line dancers know that they must learn to relax, gymnasts know that they must learn to relax. For most people working with their bodies or voices, relaxing is something fundamental, simple and basic. It seems though that there are indeed some martial artists who does not understand to relax, or the value of it. But it is only "Internal" martial arts stylists who succeed to turn relaxation into something mystical and almost intellectually incomprehensive (. . . and are able to discuss it as a topic on an internet forum for eleven pages without getting somewhere . . .).

WELL SAID!
thats what i experience with the master i train with.
(it's like what????)

I hope you understood my post as ironical.

. . . Maybe I should make a better use of smilies . . .

[WILLIE]

Dancers know that they must learn to relax, singers know that they must learn to relax, actors know that they must learn to relax, acrobatics know that they must learn to relax, line dancers know that they must learn to relax, gymnasts know that they must learn to relax. For most people working with their bodies or voices, relaxing is something fundamental, simple and basic. It seems though that there are indeed some martial artists who does not understand to relax, or the value of it. But it is only "Internal" martial arts stylists who succeed to turn relaxation into something mystical and almost intellectually incomprehensive (. . . and are able to discuss it as a topic on an internet forum for eleven pages without getting somewhere . . .).

WELL SAID!
thats what i experience with the master i train with.
(it's like what????)

I hope you understood my post as ironical.

. . . Maybe I should make a better use of smilies . . .

hey thats great! good then lets get somewhere.
fighting modes:
if we look to stages of matter,instead of just aquiring kicks,punches,grapping moves and such,which are all good and a must.
stages of matter= solid,liquid,gas,plasma. like a bomb there is power between these stages,so if we have a extra mode of operation that the opponent does not have we should have the upper hand.
power changing from liquid to solid= a car jack that is to big to fit under the car and do the job at hand,say that jack could melt to liquid then back to solid it could fit perfectly for the job at hand.the one without that mode can't.
this is the effect of as people on this forum have called it "noodleing"theres power there just of a different type.
cheers

[WILLIE]

I would never call taking power out of my arms, or keading someone into a hole...noodling.

That's funny, cause that's exactly what I've been trying to describe to you as noodling.

correct!

[Upyu]

this the the correct veiw:
did you know that even UFC/PRIDE superstar "genki sudo" used noodling or softness in his art while fighting?
he said"i'm like water they are solid entities,robotic. being like water i can asume all shaps to win any fight."
cheers!

Man, I respect Sudo Genki since he's definitely up there in the top 10 of clever cats in MMA, bar none.
But his use of using "softness" has nothing to do with using "softness" in the IMA/bodyskill/whatever makes you happy skill area.
In fact he wrote a book a couple years back about how he went to Okinawa to go see some fairly well known aged Uechi dude, who took one look at his physique and said more or less, "you have muscles where you don't need them, and weak ones where you really need them."
In particular the guy gave him a lecture on how the back should actually be developed, and that his was "too strong" (not a compliment).

Of course this was all after he retired, so even if he did incorporate the training he learned in Okinawa, it'd take him at least 2 years to start seeing results, and considering the fact that he's out of the game, I doubt you'd see him use it in any sort of ring venue in the future.

Sudo is a good marketer, entertainer, and fighter, but to imply that he has any link to the skills that Bodywork's been talking about??

[WILLIE]

this the the correct veiw:
did you know that even UFC/PRIDE superstar "genki sudo" used noodling or softness in his art while fighting?
he said"i'm like water they are solid entities,robotic. being like water i can asume all shaps to win any fight."
cheers!

Man, I respect Sudo Genki since he's definitely up there in the top 10 of clever cats in MMA, bar none.
But his use of using "softness" has nothing to do with using "softness" in the IMA/bodyskill/whatever makes you happy skill area.
In fact he wrote a book a couple years back about how he went to Okinawa to go see some fairly well known aged Uechi dude, who took one look at his physique and said more or less, "you have muscles where you don't need them, and weak ones where you really need them."
In particular the guy gave him a lecture on how the back should actually be developed, and that his was "too strong" (not a compliment).

Of course this was all after he retired, so even if he did incorporate the training he learned in Okinawa, it'd take him at least 2 years to start seeing results, and considering the fact that he's out of the game, I doubt you'd see him use it in any sort of ring venue in the future.

Sudo is a good marketer, entertainer, and fighter, but to imply that he has any link to the skills that Bodywork's been talking about??

cheers

[Upyu]

Didn't mean to imply that you were talking negatively about Bodywork.
And apologies if this comes across a bit straightforward, but we are on an IMA forum, yes?
So I'd imagine that any mention of softness/noodling/imitation of jello, would imply that the bodyskill talked about by Bodywork and others is a key ingredient. So why then, even mention Sudo at all if you acknowledge that he doesn't have those skills?

Personally I didnt read anything negative in Bodywork's post about softness. Rather that being "soft" without that key ingredient is generally a waste of time and asking for trouble.

When you say "i've seen the other side as well " then, do you mean someone that uses "softness" with connection?

[bailewen]

Before I make any more comments on it I'd like to hear a couple of things clarified for the sake of discussion.

1. Are those who think that "noodling" (whatever that means) means anything more than complete relaxation? If so, what, specifically and if not, then why use the term at all instead of just referring to being soft and relaxed?

2. Do you think that the absolute %100 absence of any "noodling" (again, whatever that means) implies:

- stiffness
- reliance on "structure" or "groundpath", redirecting force into the earth etc.

Does "noodling" mean limpness? Wiggling around?

Explain what it means to you (whoever is using the term) and how and why you think it is useful. I've already explained how and why I think it can be useful and why, at the end of the day, it's a trap and a low level skill. Who else can clarify their views on the concept or perhaps refute my argument that it is random and not "intentional" (intentional: every aspect of motion guided by specific intent, no random or wasted moves.)