Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

[Michael Babin]

I don't have an axe to grind in this discussion having never met any of those in the Snake Style discussion. I would add though that I remember reading an article based on an interview with Ip Tai Tak back in the early 90s in a British martial arts magazine in which he mentioned [I think} the special training for "indoor students". Going by memory on this and I'm pretty sure that I don't have the magazine anymore.

[Taichiturtle]

I don't have an axe to grind in this discussion having never met any of those in the Snake Style discussion. I would add though that I remember reading an article based on an interview with Ip Tai Tak back in the early 90s in a British martial arts magazine in which he mentioned [I think} the special training for "indoor students". Going by memory on this and I'm pretty sure that I don't have the magazine anymore.

Are you thinking of John Ding's magazine?

http://www.nytaichi.com/interview_ip.htm

[RobP2]

I don't have an axe to grind in this discussion having never met any of those in the Snake Style discussion. I would add though that I remember reading an article based on an interview with Ip Tai Tak back in the early 90s in a British martial arts magazine in which he mentioned [I think} the special training for "indoor students". Going by memory on this and I'm pretty sure that I don't have the magazine anymore.

Are you thinking of John Ding's magazine?

http://www.nytaichi.com/interview_ip.htm

That would've been during my time on the mag

[Taichiturtle]

I don't have an axe to grind in this discussion having never met any of those in the Snake Style discussion. I would add though that I remember reading an article based on an interview with Ip Tai Tak back in the early 90s in a British martial arts magazine in which he mentioned [I think} the special training for "indoor students". Going by memory on this and I'm pretty sure that I don't have the magazine anymore.

Are you thinking of John Ding's magazine?

http://www.nytaichi.com/interview_ip.htm

That would've been during my time on the mag

I remember seeing your name on it Rob, but never your face

[RobP2]

I remember seeing your name on it Rob, but never your face

like you said, politics

[Michael Babin]

Yup... that's the magazine and issue indeed; though I remember the article being longer with many pictures.

In re-reading the text on that link, it was interesting to see the part about how hard the training was in the old days as I had just been telling a private student about how the difference between most modern experts and the truly "masterful" experts one occasionally meets is the amount of sweat, effort and hard knocks that they have put into their training for years, if not decades, often at the expense of being a better-rounded person. Being obsessive in your aim to further your art/discipline doesn't leave much time for things like other creative passions, working in the real world, having a spouse and family. Those of us who try to do several such things may have richer lives but are less likely to reach the heights we might have liked... if we had been more obsessive about the subject.

[RobP2]

That was the full article and there weren't any or many pictures AFAIR - I have copy in the shed somewhere

I'm in two minds about the obsessive training thing - of course no-one gets anywhere without effort, but you can also get a lot more bang for buck with how you train. Someone once said to me if you can train for more than 30 minutes on your own then you aren't doing it right

[Taichiturtle]

That was the full article and there weren't any or many pictures AFAIR - I have copy in the shed somewhere

I'm in two minds about the obsessive training thing - of course no-one gets anywhere without effort, but you can also get a lot more bang for buck with how you train. Someone once said to me if you can train for more than 30 minutes on your own then you aren't doing it right

Rob I'm wondering if Michael is not right? Like maybe the interview was continued in the next issue? My memory is beginning to kick in now.

All of my instructors have been slightly unhinged - psychos make the best teachers!

[Michael Babin]

Well, this has ended up being a real trip down memory lane for me as all this discussion piqued my interest and I went searching through my piles of old magazines and clippings and bugger me didn't find that article which I had cut out and saved almost 20 bloody years ago. I probably kept this at the time because I was still heavily into Erle Montaigue's approach in the early 90s and read, saved anything I could find on his teacher's as well as the others in Yang Sau-chung's lineage.

By the way, in comparison to the original, the link says that what is there is part one but it is actually a very edited edition of the entire article that appeared in the magazine which is twice as long, with several photos. The original does talk about the stork, tiger and snake and I will quote that relevant section in its entirety for those who are curious: N.B. MD = the interviewer, Master Ding and MI = Master Ip

"MD: Practitioners often get asked what family style of Tai Chi Chuan they practiced and whether they are big or small circle? Could you explain what they mean?

"MI: Big or small circle often means that form is practiced with larger or smaller circular movements (for example Wu style is said to be small circle), However, other than this framework, the Yang style can also be classified into three types - the stork, tiger and snake.

"Stork - the postures in the form tend to be much higher and is ideal for weaker or older people to practice.

"Tiger - the postures are of medium height and should be the aim of all practitioners.

"Snake - the postures are very low and is the most difficult form to master. Only the inner disciples are taught this higher level. The form is not suitable for everybody to practice. We hear stories of different generations of Yang Masters develop such flexibility and dexterity that they are able to practice the form under table tops and even pick up coins from the ground with their mouth while in the Snake Creeps Down posture. Practitioners should not attempt to practice this snake form without the supervision and instruction of a knowledgeable and experienced Tai Chi Master."

I would imagine that this little trip down taiji memory lane could probably provoke as much heated discussion and questions as it provides answers.

For those who like accuracy in their facts [such as it existed in 1994] "You're welcome."

[Bao]

These tiger and snake names are a very new intention. I find them very wierd and one dimensional. Tai chi is snake and crane boxing.

[Fubo]

The "snake" form from Ip Tai Tak, as I understand it, does not have to do with the height or weight distribution as with the "crane, tiger, snake" form that's commonly referred to, but has more to do with the body method and how the body moves. It's actually practice relatively high. I think in Yang Shou Zhong's time it may have just be called the yang style form, and Ip Tai Tak may have retro fitted the name cause some movements looked more snake like (just my personal opinion btw), but at the end of the day, the form is the form and a name is a name.

[extrajoseph]

Thank you for all your comments. Reading Jim Uglow's webpage, it seems the crane, tiger and snake "style" is the same as doing the form in high, medium and low stance. Interesting what Jim has to say about the Snake style, "Due to its low stance, this form is not a suitable practice for everyone, and it may cause irreparable injury if one is not very careful." http://www.taichi.co.uk/forms.html
BTW is the Yeung Ma Lee Student Association still active?

[Steve Rowe]

Yes I think it is, they are all still good friends and teach together, don't know wether Bob Boyd still is though, Jim's a good guy, you can always give him a call. I always saw the 'snake' aspect as integral to all the others and is reflected in the Yang Family method of 'pulsing' to feed movement, 'coiling' with spiralling movement, 'darting' with fa jin and using the reptilian mindset for deadly combat.

[Bao]

Interesting what Jim has to say about the Snake style, "Due to its low stance, this form is not a suitable practice for everyone, and it may cause irreparable injury if one is not very careful.

Boyd teach a lot of old people. His style doesn't seem very low or different from any standard yang either.

[cerebus]

Boyd used to have a separate class for his "indoor" students, which had it's own requirements. A friend of mine trained with him years ago, but left when he realized he'd never learn anything more than empty form unless he kissed enough butt to be let into the "cool-kids secret clubhouse". He said that Boyd definitely had the goods though, he just wasn't very good about sharing with the rest of the class...