Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Yuen-Ming on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:35 pm

SCMT wrote:Followed the Yang family webpage for awhile and watched the changes, the family tree lineage chart even got changed. Also talkes with my sifu, and never said Shouhou line was doing Taijiquan and as far as my sifu knows in Hong Kong they were not, but they did exist, and I probably should not have said entire, that I do not know, only Shaohou had family there.


Zhensheng is the son I was speaking of, that Shaohou had in his late teens, and who was taken care mostly by Zhao Bin's family. He never practiced Taijiquan and later moved to west China, where he passed away pretty young.
Of course "descendants" might be in Hong Kong or even in New York City for as much as we know, but to be a blood descendant doesn't mean anything - wrt Taijiquan, which is the only thing we care about the family, that line had NO direct (family) descendants, only disciples.

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:05 am

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for the historical perspective, I only know Howard Choy for a short time, I thought he is good but no one seems to talk about him at all, may be it is just my low level of understanding.

Something interesting you said caught my eyes, “…with a bit of CLF and Chen throw in when Fajing is required”. Does that mean that each style has its way of Fajing?” and does Choy also do Yang style Fajing or not at all? It would be interesting for me if you can show in his video, the bit when he is Fajing with CLF, and he is Fajing with Chen, and when he is Fajing with Yang (if he does it at all).

May be you mean something else when you said that - eg. that he cannot fajing with Yang, he needs CLF and Chen to Fajing.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 am

Hi Wayne, Sorry to bother you again. The reason why I asked all these questions is I always thought Fajing has nothing to do with a style of MA but the way one uses one's body in an effective way, now you made me think may be CLF use the body differently to Yang Taijiquan, to Chen, to Wu, to Xingyi, to Bagua, to Hung Gar, to a boxer and to a wrestler and so forth. But how can that be? All our bodies are constructed more or less the same and the same physical laws applied to us all. It might look different on the outside but internally it must be the same, otherwise we would go against the physical laws and the way our body is constructed. Now I am confused.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:51 pm

Yuen-Ming wrote:
SCMT wrote:Followed the Yang family webpage for awhile and watched the changes, the family tree lineage chart even got changed. Also talkes with my sifu, and never said Shouhou line was doing Taijiquan and as far as my sifu knows in Hong Kong they were not, but they did exist, and I probably should not have said entire, that I do not know, only Shaohou had family there.


Zhensheng is the son I was speaking of, that Shaohou had in his late teens, and who was taken care mostly by Zhao Bin's family. He never practiced Taijiquan and later moved to west China, where he passed away pretty young.
Of course "descendants" might be in Hong Kong or even in New York City for as much as we know, but to be a blood descendant doesn't mean anything - wrt Taijiquan, which is the only thing we care about the family, that line had NO direct (family) descendants, only disciples.

YM


So when did this become about disciples?

I also never said they did Taiji in Hong Kong and said as far as my sifu knew they didn't...also pre the Yang family there are a lot of blood relatives from Yang Shaohou, just look at the family tree on the page they magically appeared on in 2007… although back in late 2006 early 2007 they claimed they did not exist.... but this is getting side tracked into a rather pointless area...of all I posted the Yang Shaohou stuff gets the most replies....intersting

My original point here was to Andy_s about the stylistic changes in other Taiji styles, not just Yang style. And to Doc Stier who I agree with and added some stuff, althoough I do not think he needed the addition, I jsut wanted to add those bits. And then to yeniseri and that is where the Yang Shaohou stuff pops up.

It was the response to yeniseri that got me to the Yang Shaohou bit and it was not in trying to prove anything about yang Shaohou it was more to the point that after Yang Chengfu died he seemed to gain a lot of students that he never mentioned before one of those being Yang Zhendou who likely trained with his father briefly but how much could he have actually learned by the time his father died, answer not much. I then mistakenly said he trained with his brother Yang Shouzhong and I was told that was incorrect and that he trained with Fu Zhongwen. And that makes sense. The reference to Yang Shaohou had more to do with you can’t believe everything the current Yang family says more than trying to prove anything about Taiji skill, training and or lineage.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:22 pm

It is a Yang Family Tree we are looking at, nothing more and it gets modified when more information comes through.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:50 pm

extrajoseph
it is where the fajin is placed i have seldom seen it practiced in the slow form.
it is either done as extra exercises or as part of a fast set or in the weapons mainly the pole or spear.
saying that it is also how it is done,it arises as a pulse from the feet,it is hard to explain but i know it when i see it.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:35 pm

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for your explanation, any reason why Fajin is not done in the Yang slow form like the Chen form? Here is a video of "Best Fajin, period!". Is it the best?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVIT9EGWbdQ

Erle also does Fajin, how are the two compared? He does it standing up quite straight, doe it arises as a pulse from the feet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVIT9EGWbdQ

I am just wondering if there is a standard to judge in a demonstration what is a good fajin or not, apart from the ability to knock someone off his feet in a fight.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Tesshu on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:27 am

extrajoseph, please check the link to the second video - it is the same as the first. Thanks.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:27 am

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Graculus on Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:20 am

It is impossible to say with certainty anything about the quality of the fajin the guy in the first clip can produce as he doesn't hit anything. He has developed some shen-fa, (some of which looks as if it would be detrimental to meaningful fajin) but... I think you would be safer sticking to what Erle is talking about... he's talking about effect. Judge for yourself. Can you do what he is? If you can find a willing pad holder, it shouldn't be hard to test it.

Fajin is different in different styles, and a lot of the shen-fa (body technique or body movement if you will) of individual styles was aimed at developing/producing/supporting their characteristic fajin. If a style is practiced primarily as a pushing/throwing/locking art it is likely to adapt the shen-fa with a resulting weakness in fajin.

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Buddy on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:45 pm

I apologize if this has been posted already (I only got to page 8 or so before replying). But the clip that Yuen Ming referred to (Zhaobao?) struck me as similar to the way I've seen Wei Lun Huang do his Yang taiji.

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:23 pm

extrajoseph i really dont have any comment to make on any of the clips,sorry
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Andy_S on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:03 pm

Buddy:

Good to see you are still in the land of the living. Been a while!

RE: Wei Lun-huang:
Very nice performance, very athletic. And I can only assume from his flexibility and his stances that he actually trains this way - it is not just "demo style." GIven the responses to this and to the other "What made the early-generation Yangers so good" thread, I would hazard a guess that early Yang style Taiji - complete with fajing, low stances, and a generally higher level of athleticism -looked more like this than most of the Yang Taiji we see today.

Dmitri:

Is this the same guy you posted a very good applications clip from a month or two ago?
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Buddy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:52 am

Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. But two hip replacements later I had thought I had given up martial arts. But this and other in depth and fascination threads give me pause. But at 55 the thought of starting over is daunting.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Tom on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:47 pm

Michael Babin wrote:Well, this has ended up being a real trip down memory lane for me as all this discussion piqued my interest and I went searching through my piles of old magazines and clippings and bugger me didn't find that article which I had cut out and saved almost 20 bloody years ago. I probably kept this at the time because I was still heavily into Erle Montaigue's approach in the early 90s and read, saved anything I could find on his teacher's as well as the others in Yang Sau-chung's lineage.

By the way, in comparison to the original, the link says that what is there is part one but it is actually a very edited edition of the entire article that appeared in the magazine which is twice as long, with several photos. The original does talk about the stork, tiger and snake and I will quote that relevant section in its entirety for those who are curious: N.B. MD = the interviewer, Master Ding and MI = Master Ip

"MD: Practitioners often get asked what family style of Tai Chi Chuan they practiced and whether they are big or small circle? Could you explain what they mean?

"MI: Big or small circle often means that form is practiced with larger or smaller circular movements (for example Wu style is said to be small circle), However, other than this framework, the Yang style can also be classified into three types - the stork, tiger and snake.

"Stork - the postures in the form tend to be much higher and is ideal for weaker or older people to practice.

"Tiger - the postures are of medium height and should be the aim of all practitioners.

"Snake - the postures are very low and is the most difficult form to master. Only the inner disciples are taught this higher level. The form is not suitable for everybody to practice. We hear stories of different generations of Yang Masters develop such flexibility and dexterity that they are able to practice the form under table tops and even pick up coins from the ground with their mouth while in the Snake Creeps Down posture. Practitioners should not attempt to practice this snake form without the supervision and instruction of a knowledgeable and experienced Tai Chi Master."


I would imagine that this little trip down taiji memory lane could probably provoke as much heated discussion and questions as it provides answers. :)

For those who like accuracy in their facts [such as it existed in 1994] "You're welcome."


In connection with the existence of various "animal" frames in Yang Sau-chung's teaching, a gent from Singapore, Y. Wu, who had trained a particular Shaolin style in Hong Kong wrote (back in 2006):

When I learned Yang Shaochung’s version of taiji through a friend who studied (and for a few years also lived with) with Chu Kin Hung who now teaches in London there was never any mention of animal forms. The only forms mentioned were the long form and a secret fast form. Perhaps my friend weren’t privy to the secret transmission of the 3 animal forms. Perhaps……………

Fast forward to more than a decade later and I was learning from a teacher in Hong Kong. This teacher mentioned that a long time ago (I didn’t asked for details then as I wasn’t interested to know back then) Yang Shaochung came to their school to challenge his grandmaster.
After trying conclusions (I won’t say who lost or won but the inference here is quite clear), Yang Shaochung stayed for some time to learn. How long I am sorry to say I didn’t ask also. What was interesting is that the Shaolin system that Yang Shaochung learned also emphasized on the animals of snake and crane. I was also told that there were 8 more animals and it should not come as a surprise that one of the eight animals was the tiger.
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