Doing a lot of pondering about the development of XY, from X

[salcanzonieri]

Speaking of Baji Quan, did you know that Li Liaoneng's student Guo Yunshen was a Baji Quan master / student first?

[amor]

[
I think that from what I saw the modern Zhuan Zhuang in XY comes from Bagua Zhang influence but that was in turn from Zhuan Zhuang that was done all over Hebei by Mei Hua Zhuang stylists, who very much interacted with BGZ people via Boxer Rebellion connections.

This similarity between XYQ and Bagua in their training methods is something that I see cropping up again and again. Their fighting strategies also both revolve around the footwork alot i.e. issuing movements from the legs. But taichi (especially yang and wu style) is less about the footwork and more on the waist through which to issue movement. It seems like there were a lot of clans in the villages in ancient and pre-communist china that had their own variant styles of bagua and xingi that spurned various derivatives off of these; just wondering if there as many clans dotted around the mainland who followed 'the taiji' way of fighting (some taiji principles are common to xingi and bagua) that got refined as the techniques got passed down?
Would be interesting to see if there were as many taiji clans out there, not just a load of hsing-i/bagua fanatics, which is the impression I get
Is this something your book will go into a lot of detail about?

[jonathan.bluestein]

Speaking of Baji Quan, did you know that Li Liaoneng's student Guo Yunshen was a Baji Quan master / student first?

Really?? Which lineage? Where did you get this info?

[BajiFreak]

Yeah, I know what you are saying about the Bashi, but there are various systems within Shaolin from different time periods and from different "gates" that have routine with the same names but are different sets.
The Baji Quan that has incorporated jingang Bashi, which they got from the master of many styles Li Rundong. He brought in Inner Court Yard Shaolin sect version of Shaolin Bashi. But the other more known standard Shaolin calls their Danshi set the same identical movements with the same identical names as those of the Baji Quan Jingang Bashi and those look much more like what is seen today in Bajia Quan Jingang Bashi. I have video of old Shaolin master doing the Danshi really reall slow, he's in his 90s, in my Youtube Channel videos, and that set (which I learned long ago) is identical movements with those in some branches of Baji Quan, they have identical names for the movements too, kinda like what you showed in your video, but also not.

That particular Shaolin Jingang Bashi that I posted a video of is not really like the Danshi / Baji Quan Jingang Bashi, it is from a different Shaolin system and it is doing for training to step certain ways, that are much more like XY stepping.
Compare these videos by the old master and with Baji Quan and you will see they are doing the same things, and indeed the moves have identical names in both styles.
Here is Shaolin Danshi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7n94_WT2s
Here is another Shaolin Jingang Bashi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XO85ewT6Ik

Here is Baji Quan Jingang Bashi (Ma and Han family Baji are most like Shaolin Jingang Bashi as done by the old Shaolin master:
Ma style Baji - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfvne6AuRwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUuJkkucB8s
plus the Bashi shown in these videos:http://www.youtube.com/user/BajiAssociation/videos

I think that from what I saw the modern Zhuan Zhuang in XY comes from Bagua Zhang influence but that was in turn from Zhuan Zhuang that was done all over Hebei by Mei Hua Zhuang stylists, who very much interacted with BGZ people via Boxer Rebellion connections.

Very intesrting, thanks for hilighting this. And do you have infos about when and from where these Bashi/Danshi were introduced in the Shaolin system ?

[salcanzonieri]

There is a whole chapter on the roots of Taiji Quan too in the book. There's 8 chapters, starting with BGZ and going backwards in time.

The Shaolin Danshi/ Bashi system was something that they did as part of their qigong / neigong practice, and it is pre-Ming dynasty as far as can be discerned.


Okay, so, what's the purpose of my book? the purpose of knowing all the stuff I am always presenting? Well, it's the following, and this idea has made me able to use all the styles I learned interchangeablly when needed in real life for self defense, do the internals better, and have a mental as well as physical grasp of why I am doing that movements that way (history has some value), and so:

By knowing how the styles overlap, you can create a "rosetta stone" that maps each postural movements and their sequences to each internal style. Hence, the internal style are of one family, and each provides a different strategy for self defense, used depending on the situation.

For example:

A specific postural movement originally found in Spear, staff, sword, and knife;
which = Shaolin Chan Youn Qigong - "Windy Greeting brushes Away Dirt" postural movements;
which = Shaolin Luouhan 13 Posture (Shisan Shi) - "Louhan Drapes Coat"
which = postural movements found in Shaolin Jingang Bashi; (which introduces it into Baji Quan too)
which = postural movements found in Shaolin Luohan Quan;
which = 2nd postural movement of TaiZu Chang Quan 32 postures - "Yinmian Ban Shou";
which = postural movements found in Chuaojiao & Bafan Shan (Wen Family Boxing) routines;
Which = "Jin Tui Lianhuan Shi" postural movement found in Yue Ba Fan Shou;
which = Snake postural movements found in Yue Jia Quan routines;
which = XY Snake shape postural movements;
which = Tongbei Quan postural movements;
which = Taiji Quan = Brush Knee Twist Steep & Ba Nan Chui postural movements
which = BGZ Third Palm Change -Flowing Palm postural movements.

There you have not only an evolution from battlefield weapons to sophisicated internal martial arts, but also a mapping that allows you to go really deep into your styles and studies AND you can learn a new style more efficiently and effectively because you can see where they overlap rather than confusion.


S

[salcanzonieri]

Speaking of Baji Quan, did you know that Li Liaoneng's student Guo Yunshen was a Baji Quan master / student first?

Really?? Which lineage? Where did you get this info?

Its found a lot of places, first place I saw it was years ago on a Chinese website about the martail arts of Hebei villages.

But here is a site that has lineage info:

http://en.cnws.tv/article_details.php?id=7

Save people trouble of looking:

郭云深
Yunshen Guo （1820-1901） was born in a poor family in Ma village of Shen county, he earned family by his own strength and visited martial art masters. Heard about Xiaolan Liu's name, he went to Xiling Yizhou to visit him, and be taught by Tingli Sun to learn Bajiquan. He lived in Xiaolan Liu's home and be genealogical brothers with Liu in the school of Bajiquan. Tingli Sun introduced Guo to Luoneng Li who was living in Shanxi province to learn Xingyiquan after finished Bajiquan learning. Guo visited Luoneng Li at Taigu in Shanxi province and made clear what his come for Li, showed Gangmenghouquan and Lihua spear to Luoneng Li. Mr Li saw Guo's excellent talent and bound out as his apprentice. Luoneng Li made living by plant vegetables, Guo help him to take care of the vegetables hardly, won the love of Mr Li. Li taught him all he knew. Twelve years later, Guo completed his wushu learning career. He was put into prison because of killing villain afterwards, but he stuck to exercised Kongfu everyday with chains. Because on the flail, he had acquired half a step stunt –”Half-step Bengquan“ , so he is well known later with ”Half-step Bengquan“ all over the world”.

　　Owned high prestige in the martial art community at his period. His boxing static as Tai Mountain while moving as flying bird. If unexpected things happened, as long as he can hear and see it, he can escape no matter how fast boxing and swordplay by his opponents. Yunshen Guo has high reputation in the martial art field, of course someone appealed to him, the man who comes from Hebei zhenganxian nicknamed “Wicked Bagua” Luofu Jiao ever defeated big guns Dekuan Liu by a pole was well-known. Luofu Jiao comes and competes with Yunshen Guo, but only one round, Jiao was knocked to the ground. Jiao closed door of is house and thought how to collapse Guo's “Bengquan” day by day. One day, he realized from cutting radish to break “Bengquan”， and he excised hard for many years until he can broke off the bowllike thick post by one palm, and invited Yunshen Guo to compete. But he lost to Yunshen Guo again. Luofu Jiao never has failure when he matched against other masters, but lost two times with Yunshen Guo, he still felt uncomfortable and racked his brains to think the lack of his skills, and thought out an idea to against Yunshen Guo. But he was knocked down by Guo at the third time. Jiao rolled sleeve on his arm, revealing the tied dagger, which is used for breaking Guo's arm , but Guo's fist is really superb, imagined it in vain. Since then, the story of Yunshen Guo won “Wicked idea” Luofu Jiao with half-step “Bengquan” spread like wildfire. The leading disciple of Yunsheng Guo are his son Shen Guo, Kuiyuan Li, Zhanao Xu, Yantang Qian, Xiangzhai Wang, and so on. Yunshen Guo be adept with both the pen and the sword, he has the system study of research and summary of Xingyiquan theory, and wrote the book of “Neng Shuo Xingyiquan Jing”。 Those theories are very important help for the following learners of Xingyiquan. Practicing martial arts of “Xingyiquan” has three layers of breathing. The first layer of breathing is that roll tongue back, resisting on the palate, mouth open and not open, let breathing go hang, don't focus on breathing, because limbs in line with the rules, so this is the law of regulation of breathing, and it's the Kongfu transfer spirit into the strength. The second layer of breathing is almost like the first one except breathing, the former's movements of hands and feet are the regulation of breathing, but this is regulating respiration. The third layer of breathing is different from the two layers, the first layer is expressing strength outside while the second layer expressing inside. The third layer though has breathing, it seems no breathing.

[salcanzonieri]

Well, here's something interesting, English subtitled documentary of Yue Fei and Yue Jia Quan and some discoveries that were made in a tomb:
[url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOjkWxrl34[/url]

[chud]

Well, here's something interesting, English subtitled documentary of Yue Fei and Yue Jia Quan and some discoveries that were made in a tomb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOjkWxrl34

Interesting, thanks Sal.

[klonk]

Watched its beginning, have bookmarked it to watch the rest when I can. Yeah, interesting!

[klonk]

Got a chance to watch the rest of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOjkWxrl34 . I think it's grand how interested the people are in the deep historical background. You can't get Westerners interested in old historical Western martial arts and most of us have no idea who we're related to nine centuries back.

[D_Glenn]

Well, here's something interesting, English subtitled documentary of Yue Fei and Yue Jia Quan and some discoveries that were made in a tomb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXOjkWxrl34

Nice. But I remembered hearing about this before so I did a search for "武穆遺書"

And found a blog that my teacher had quoted in a lecture a few years ago:
《岳武穆王武艺要论》是一本汇聚冷兵器武术及岳家拳法的武学书。岳家拳共有15套，现存的只有10套，如梅花拳、五虎拳、黑虎拳、猛虎下西川拳、吞吐拳等。

　　岳家拳讲究桩法，底盘要稳。岳进耍了一套鸳鸯拳，并和记者进行演练，一拨一击中，连续完成致命攻击。“鸳鸯硬如铁，专打气和血。切莫打当胸，一命更难绝。”

{《Yue WuMu (Martial Classic) [on the] Great Martial Art's Important Concepts》 is that the whole system comes together with the use of Cold Weapons, Martial Skills and Yue Family Fist Methods/ Fighting techniques forming it's foundation. Yue Family Boxing had 15 sets. Today it only has 10 sets, such as: Mei Hua Quan (Plum Blossom Boxing), WuHu Quan (Five Tiger Boxing), Hei Hu Quan (Black Tiger Boxing), Menghu xia xi chuan quan (Fierce Tiger comes down to the West river Boxing), Tuntu Quan (Taking in/ Sending out Boxing).

Yue Family Boxing pays particular attention to the Zhuang Fa (Standing Methods) because having a stable chassis/ frame to support everything is important. To advance the practices there is a movement set called Yuanyang Quan (Mandarin Duck Boxing), it's a moving practice drill, one push, one strike, continually charging and attacking until the opponent is finished. "Yuanyang is hard as iron, purposely striking/moving Qi and Blood, but it's very important to not let this come up into your chest and potentially damage your heart and take years off your life/ cut it short."}


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