Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby johnwang on Sat May 17, 2008 3:17 pm

Tinjin is the jin of experience. It exists in every open hand and weapon forms and not unique in Taiji. The push hands process can develop Tinjin, but if you do push hands all the time, it will destroy your Tinjin because PH is too slow. When you practice with your classmates, nobody is trying to hurt each other. it's very easy to listen. In fighting, the hands touching are very fast, like lighting strike or spark comes out of rock, You don't even have time to insert a hair into it (how little time that you have). Your opponent also has determination to kill you. It's fights for your life. If you are used to learn Tinjin from push hands, you won't be able to listen even 0.001% of your opponent's intention in reality.

Image

I do believe the true Tinjin can only been developed through "fast contact".
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 17, 2008 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby kenneth delves on Sat May 17, 2008 7:03 pm

My Wing chun teacher said 'when you touch it is like you touch a hot stove', I dont always agree with JW but in combat things happen fast, too fast to think
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby Mut on Sat May 17, 2008 7:12 pm

I agree, the touch in fighting is brief, the tinjin of PHs alone is not that great for fighting unless you also work with fast methods... appling tinjin on attacks with intent, initially at slower speed and progressively faster over time.

We generally work with one KF guy and one feeder. These drills devlop over time to sparring where there is still one KF guy and one feeder, though the feed becomes totally open.

But then our PHs is based more on being in wrestling range, attempting to get back to our prefered range without giving up potential advantage.

I do believe the true Tinjin can only been developed through "fast contact".


If you mean by this that after you have learned how to listen you then devlop it through fast work i agree.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby johnwang on Sat May 17, 2008 7:29 pm

kenneth delves wrote:My Wing chun teacher said 'when you touch it is like you touch a hot stove.

I like that statement. If you can't get all the information that you need from a quick contact then your Tinjin is not there yet.

- Your opponent punch at your face.
- You use "comb hair" to deflect his punch.
- You then wrap his arm, and
- Attack whatever that you want.

How much Tinjin do you need from this process? All you need to know is during the "deflecting", your opponent's striking arm won't give you any trouble (he could borrow your deflecting and then give you an upper cut or hook punch depend on whether your hand is inside or outside).

Mut wrote:If you mean by this that after you have learned how to listen you then devlop it through fast work i agree.

Both WC and PM Tinjin training are much faster drills than Taiji PH drill.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby BAI HE on Sat May 17, 2008 8:37 pm

- Your opponent punch at your face.
- You use "comb hair" to deflect his punch.
- You then wrap his arm, and
- Attack whatever that you want.


He's strong and quick...
You go for the wrap, but he's in your legs...
He "steals" you step, cuts you base
and throws you.

He had better TinJin ;D
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby CaliG on Sat May 17, 2008 9:27 pm

Another good article from Adam Hsu.

I believe push hands has to be done along with fighting drills or the player has to have had some basis in fighting before doing push hands training or some fight training after they've developed good push hands if they want to be able to use tinjin under pressure.

In another words I still think push hands is good training, but it shouldn't replace fighting drils.
Last edited by CaliG on Sat May 17, 2008 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby Mut on Sat May 17, 2008 9:35 pm

Both WC and PM Tinjin training are much faster drills than Taiji PH drill.


absolutely, but even the SPM Tinjin is trained slow initially then sped up (though SPM slow is fast compared to most PHs)

Personally though I think Tin jin is far more important at grappling/clinching range rather than at the range that you see commonly in PHs and WC chi sao(not to discount it at these other ranges) As I said we tend to use PHs as a method of regaining our preferred range when we end up too tight to the other guy or as a way of finding good throws. Listening is just a tool that needs to be trained in as realistic an environment as possible to help you to use it....

How much Tinjin do you need from this process? All you need to know is during the "deflecting", your opponent's striking arm won't give you any trouble (he could borrow your deflecting and then give you an upper cut or hook punch depend on whether your hand is inside or outside).
A good deflection is one where you have hit back before the opponent has time to borrow your deflection
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby johnwang on Sat May 17, 2008 9:41 pm

Mut wrote:A good deflection is one where you have hit back before the opponent has time to borrow your deflection

I won't underestimate my opponent's hook punch from borrowing my deflecting. It can smash down both of my defense and offense arms (just like a powerful round house kick).
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby Walk the Torque on Sat May 17, 2008 10:28 pm

CaliG wrote:Another good article from Adam Hsu.

I believe push hands has to be done along with fighting drills or the player has to have had some basis in fighting before doing push hands training or some fight training after they've developed good push hands if they want to be able to use tinjin under pressure.

In another words I still think push hands is good training, but it shouldn't replace fighting drils.


Agreed. I had a great time learning hubud Lubud after a long time pushing hands and rou shou.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby SPJ on Sat May 17, 2008 10:38 pm

I like the first paragraph.

When we open the door, it is the time that we deliver attacks after attacks, or not just one attack.

When we seal our door in defense, we stop the opponent's posture and coming moves. We do not stop at blocking just one arm or one leg.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby nianfong on Sat May 17, 2008 10:54 pm

mr. wang is my SC uncle, yet I don't always agree with what he says (he thinks differently from my teacher). But in this I think he is dead on, as is of course mr. hsu. to train tingjin to use, you pretty much need to practice SC, or spar at normal speed.

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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby ppscat on Sat May 17, 2008 10:59 pm

johnwang wrote:- Your opponent punch at your face.
- You use "comb hair" to deflect his punch.
- You then wrap his arm, and
- Attack whatever that you want.

How much Tinjin do you need from this process? All you need to know is during the "deflecting", your opponent's striking arm won't give you any trouble (he could borrow your deflecting and then give you an upper cut or hook punch depend on whether your hand is inside or outside).

Both WC and PM Tinjin training are much faster drills than Taiji PH drill.


IMO you cannot isolate Tinjin from Sung and Fajin, it's a process.

In Shanghai, my teacher met a Wu Taiji master who practice mostly fast PH, no circling slow drills, the defender with feet parallel has to connect and sung, and the attacker enter, disconnect and enter again at high speed, mimicing somehow what happens at combat. So even in Wu Style, which focus heavily in PH to develop Tinjin, they are addressing that problem. I guess that this can be found in other styles too.

.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby I-mon on Sun May 18, 2008 2:53 am

ppscat was that master Xu who trains at hongkou football stadium? sounds like the way he teaches his students. i was very impressed.
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby kenneth delves on Sun May 18, 2008 7:06 am

I think the process of block/punch has to be addressed. In Hsing yi I learnt some slower forms of PH, these were establishing a base for 'listening, later it was speeded up, so if you make a bridge the following sequence takes place in a fraction of a second:bridge/slight expanding power into opponents arm creating reaction/apply jing to reaction either in linear or small circle, breaking root[at shoulder] and power/block-punch enters, arm has gone from 'hard'[jing] to relaxed immediately in case opponent has absorbed jing and is counterattacking. Relaxed arm enters and makes contact with opponents body where focussed jing is used to attack organs. Often an onlooker may only see the punch brushing aside an opponents arm and striking, giving an impression of 'external' power whereas the peocess is a lot more subtle. This is 'internal' insofar as the changes in hard/relaxed/jing come from inside the body, not through biceps/triceps, not through mysterious chi, just training small muscle sets and integrating with reactions from external pressures to create an immediate response via the neuromuscular system
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Re: Adam Hsu's opinion on Tinjin

Postby ppscat on Sun May 18, 2008 9:26 am

I-Mon, I don't remember his name. I will tell you in the next few days when my teacher comes back.
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