BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby Andy_S on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:36 pm

Gents:

A short inquiry on history/development.

Is it generally agreed that the history of these arts is as follows:
Ba Pan Zhang was the original root/village art;
Yin Yang Baguazhang descended from the above - as did Dong style Baguazhang, which subsequently became the dominant sub-style of this family of IMA, after Dong arrived in the big city?

Short answers preferred - but open fire with all weapons if you truly feel you must. TIA.
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:21 am

Thanks to this forum we've figured out that Dong Haichuan taught Fan Zhiyong some Qilin/Unicorn Xing. Who later on was invited by another student of Dong Haichuan, Liu Baozhen, to stay with him in Gu'an County, but while up there Fan killed a local bandit and took the alias of Li Zhenqing while he was hiding out in Gu’an County, Hebei Province teaching it to Liu Baozhen, his cousin Xiao Haibo, and the younger Ren Zhicheng.

Later on when Ren Zhicheng was practicing this style in Beijing it looked so different from the more popular Dragon Xing of Cheng Tinghua School of Bagua and he took a lot of grief for it. Ren likely didn't really know why it was different and stopped calling the art he practiced "Baguazhang" and instead he changed the name to Yin Yang Ba Pan Zhang and made up a different lineage as he likely wasn't aware that they were practicing the Kun Trigram Lin/ Unicorn system but it's clearly evident now as we can see they turn the circle with the 'Unicorn holds out the Book' signature posture and use the thick wooden, double-tipped spear of Baguazhang. Which follows the foundational theory of Baguazhang that - If the weapon is hard, rigid, then the body must be soft and flexible in order to wield it (Pure Yin Kun Trigram Unicorn). We can also see now that YYBP is similar to Fan Zhiyong style of Baguazhang.

Xiao Haibo still called it Baguazhang and I think publicly refuted Ren Zhicheng's claims.


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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:30 am

I don't think that the majority of baguazhang practitioners believe that yinyangbapanzhang was the origin of baguazhang, even if China TV or whatever seems to push this argument these days.

Also, "yin yang baguazhang" I think usually refers to the baguazhang taught by Tian Hui - which he said was from his family, but others said he had learned from a student of Xie Peiqi, if I remember correctly.

I read an anecdote in the old Japanese CMA rag of Ren Zhicheng having noted Sun Xikun's book, and excited that it looked similar to his own style, tried to contact Sun but was rebuffed. Unhappy, angry, etc., he then changed the name of his own book to "Yin Yang Bapanzhang" - well, the story was something like that - sorry, but I don't have my source right now!
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby yeniseri on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:57 pm

Apparently Dong's family had an art, whether it is the family itself or of the village? or the name? (Bapanzhang-allegedly debatable) but he changed elements of the village/family name style to match Beijing cultural MA hub and added Daoist?buddhist stuff to make it palatable to the greater public. Most important was the martial skill so it was tantamount to supremacy, over and or in conjunction with CMA of the era. My sources were various CMA magazines from Hong Kong, parts of 'translated articles from a few teachers. If I recall correctly, there were alleged Dong family members who were named as being experts but whose art remained in Dong's village!
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:21 pm

yeniseri wrote:Apparently Dong's family had an art, whether it is the family itself or of the village? or the name? (Bapanzhang-allegedly debatable) but he changed elements of the village/family name style to match Beijing cultural MA hub and added Daoist?buddhist stuff to make it palatable to the greater public. Most important was the martial skill so it was tantamount to supremacy, over and or in conjunction with CMA of the era. My sources were various CMA magazines from Hong Kong, parts of 'translated articles from a few teachers. If I recall correctly, there were alleged Dong family members who were named as being experts but whose art remained in Dong's village!

Dong Haichuan's older cousin was a teacher of Ba Fan Men (8 rotation Martial System) aka Ba Shan Men aka Fanzi Quan
but his village style was just a Luohan Quan variation, as was most of village styles in close proximity to Shaolin Temple.

At a young age Dong Haichuan (DHC) learned his village's Luohan Quan and the village teacher recommended to his parents that they send him to Cangzhou to further his martial arts skills so at the age of 12 they sent him to learn Liu He Men (Six Harmony Martial System) from Li Guanming near Cangzhou City.

DHC had a photographic memory so he learned that, and any other style, very quickly, so it was pointless to become a disciple and Li Guanming sent him to various martial arts friends to learn other systems:
~ Chuo Jiao Men (Piercing Leg Martial System) and it's sub-styles of Jingang Quan, Erlang Quan, and Taiji Shisanxing (Taiji 13 Shapes).
~ then went on to learn his cousin's Ba Fan Men style.
~ then traveled south to learn arts like Zi Men Quan (character gate boxing) and Ying Men Quan (hard gate boxing).
~ came back up north and became involved with the Li Trigram Sect of Quanzhen Daoism and learned their Daoist and Buddhist combined practices and martial art called Shen Quan (Spirit Boxing).

All those Martial Systems, along with a few more I didn't mention, were blended together or isolated into their different animal Xing, added to, subtracted from, and all mixed with the Li Trigram's Internal practices became DHC's Baguazhang.


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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:09 pm

Late master Lu Zhongren who passed recently was a student of Xiao Haibo, and his Ba Pan Zhang included a lot of ZZ training, utilizing many different postures. I wonder when this had gotten into Bagua curriculum, as his ZZ seems more related to how they're trained in XYQ. Lu Zhongren was also a master of Song XYQ via Li Xuzhou, but the Ba Pan Zhang ZZ postures look very different.
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:57 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Late master Lu Zhongren who passed recently was a student of Xiao Haibo, and his Ba Pan Zhang included a lot of ZZ training, utilizing many different postures. I wonder when this had gotten into Bagua curriculum, as his ZZ seems more related to how they're trained in XYQ. Lu Zhongren was also a master of Song XYQ via Li Xuzhou, but the Ba Pan Zhang ZZ postures look very different.

In Baguazhang the Standing postures (ZZ) can be stood in various ways, the upper portion of the postures would be roughly the same but the way that the lower body is used makes a big difference:
- both feet side by side, toes pointing forward with weight distributed about 50/50 (basically a Mabu) for promoting muscle
- weight 50/50 but both feet hooking in (kou bu) or both feet pointing out to the side (bai bu) for opening or closing Mingmen point
- both feet pointing at an angle to the side but staggered (basically a Santishi) with weight distributed 70/30 or 100/0 for bringing everything back to the core of the body
- weight 100/0 while holding kicking/ leg development postures

Both feet at an angle, etc. (similar to Xingyi Santishi), with the weight more on the back foot, is more of a calming type of ZZ, where standing 50/50 can be used to get the qi and blood moving.

Fan Zhiyong had previously learned a lot of hard qigong practices that had already made him kind of crazy, hence his nickname Fan "The Madman".

So DHC only taught him stuff that would help to calm him down, help him to control his anger, and promote energy rather then muscle. So the type of Standing he learned would've only been the 70/30 to 100/0 weight on the back foot.


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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby longarm on Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:56 am

I believe Fan Zhiyong was known as Fan "The Madman" due to his practice of the " four directions eight points " stepping used for fighting. This he was very fast and powerful at and when performed he whirled in multiple directions like a madman.

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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:47 pm

longarm wrote:I believe Fan Zhiyong was known as Fan "The Madman" due to his practice of the " four directions eight points " stepping used for fighting. This he was very fast and powerful at and when performed he whirled in multiple directions like a madman.

I don't think I've heard that reason. Thanks.

Some other theories are that he refused to deal with a high official, or something like that, so they called him 瘋子 Fengzi (Madman, Lunatic); or something about he had 10 siblings, brothers, so they called him "Fan Shi (the Tenth)" but he was also craziest of the brothers so they called him "Fan Fengzi".

There's more theories as to why but it makes you wonder why there are so many different ones.

I'm still leaning towards the one- that he was really good at Waijia Quanjiao (external martial arts) but was always red in the face when he was practicing, and he already had the nickname before he met DHC.

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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby lazyboxer on Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:06 pm

What's being presented as Fan style bagua today is mostly indistinguishable from the ubiquitous hybridized Beijing bagua wushu, though a bit peppier. Fan family neigong is another matter, having affinities to Ren Zhicheng's and Xiao Haibo's Yin-Yang Bapanzhang/ Baguazhang:



I've often wondered why he was nicknamed 'Crazy' Fan. Old Auntie Fan, his daughter, probably knew but may have been too polite to tell.
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby Andy_S on Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:37 pm

Thanks for all the commentary. Where does Yin Yang Baguazhang fit into the mix? It looks like a very effective MA, but in terms of its stance and its apparent lack of SPH, I wonder whether it is bagua "as we know it."

RE: "Fan the Madman"
Was that not one of Brian's (several) online handles back in the days before the RSF/EF schism? Wonder if he was aware of the historical background to his monicker...?
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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby longarm on Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:57 am

Most of the fan style that can be seen in the open classes and at competitions has been changed for that purpose. a lot of students ( mainly the younger ones) like to attend competitions and so need the forms to conform to the scoring system. They also like to perform the more beautiful forms. most do not like the older original forms as they are hard and are believed to be ugly.
they are taught to the inner students on a one to one basis but require a lot of work. most people do not stay long enough to get to the original material. Fan style was always passed to only a few students and this is still true. You will not see these forms on the internet or at the open classes.

Although there is plenty on circle walking in the system one of the main stepping methods is the four direction eight points which is how all of the eight big palms start . Most of the younger students interested in competitions do not like this method as it scores low.

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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:49 am

Andy_S wrote:Thanks for all the commentary. Where does Yin Yang Baguazhang fit into the mix? It looks like a very effective MA, but in terms of its stance and its apparent lack of SPH, I wonder whether it is bagua "as we know it."

From an old thread: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=197054#p197366
We had a topic about this a couple of years ago, so to refresh everyone's memory, the guy in the clip: Tian KeYan is the son of Tian Hui who had studied Baguazhang for a short time with a disciple of Men Baozhen and Xie Pieqi's gongfu brother: Shi Junjie (史俊杰 1924-84). There was some sort of issue with Tian Hui and he was kicked out of the school and then many years later apparently decided to just invent his own lineage and a new history of Baguazhang that predates Dong Haichuan.

They've taken material and theory from Men Baozhen's Baguazhang book and changed a couple things around to make it appear to be different and genuine. Kind of a strange thing to do if you ask me.

Also note that Men Baozhen (MBZ) was a very strict teacher and taught according to rules and the first thing everyone was taught was the Qian trigram Lion System for many years before learning the other animals. It's the foundation of MBZ's Baguazhang and without it the other animals would just be built upon unstable ground, so to speak, having a weak foundation. This idea was passed down to his students, who in turn, taught in the same manner. He Jinbao, a student of Xie Peiqi had to learn the Lion System for roughly 10 years before learning any of the other animals. Point being that to me, all of Tian Keyan's animals just look like MBZ Lion, only done badly.

I think that Tian Hui also waited until Shi Junjie died in 1984 (thinking he was the only person alive who could call him out) before he promoted this new lineage. :-\

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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby jadegreg on Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:22 am

D_Glenn wrote:Thanks to this forum we've figured out that Dong Haichuan taught Fan Zhiyong some Qilin/Unicorn Xing. Who later on was invited by another student of Dong Haichuan, Liu Baozhen, to stay with him in Gu'an County, but while up there Fan killed a local bandit and took the alias of Li Zhenqing while he was hiding out in Gu’an County, Hebei Province teaching it to Liu Baozhen, his cousin Xiao Haibo, and the younger Ren Zhicheng.
.


Not wanting to rain on the parade, but isn't Fan as Li Zhenqing still conjecture. I mean, Fan and 'Ba pan zhang' styles do share many commonalities, which I don't refute, but the fact that Liu Baozhen and Fan were together in the late 19th century is hardly conclusive. Is there some other 'history' I'm missing out on? Did Fan Fenglan verify this information, with respect to Uncle Xiao and Uncle Ren, whom she most certainly would have known, had they trained under 'Li Zhenqing'.

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Re: BaPan Zhang, Yin Yang Baguazhang, Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:01 am

jadegreg wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Thanks to this forum we've figured out that Dong Haichuan taught Fan Zhiyong some Qilin/Unicorn Xing. Who later on was invited by another student of Dong Haichuan, Liu Baozhen, to stay with him in Gu'an County, but while up there Fan killed a local bandit and took the alias of Li Zhenqing while he was hiding out in Gu’an County, Hebei Province teaching it to Liu Baozhen, his cousin Xiao Haibo, and the younger Ren Zhicheng.


Not wanting to rain on the parade, but isn't Fan as Li Zhenqing still conjecture. I mean, Fan and 'Ba pan zhang' styles do share many commonalities, which I don't refute, but the fact that Liu Baozhen and Fan were together in the late 19th century is hardly conclusive. Is there some other 'history' I'm missing out on? Did Fan Fenglan verify this information, with respect to Uncle Xiao and Uncle Ren, whom she most certainly would have known, had they trained under 'Li Zhenqing'.

Greg

Not raining on my parade. And yes: conjecture. :)

There's some old threads about it and there's some information that Sal had dug up about Li Zhenqing but I'm just waiting for his book to be published. As there's a chance he was an actual person, and was in Chuo Jiao lineage and learned it's Ba Pan Zhang (Eight Coiling Palms which are just a set of exercises really, not a complete system), which along with some other stuff is also the root of Baguazhang's Kun Trigram Lin (unicorn) Shape/system (Xing) and someone at that time (Liu Baozhen) may have noticed the outward similarities as well and sought out a Chuo Jiao teacher to further his training.

The only piece of information that I'm 90% sure of is that Liu Baozhen practiced the Lin (unicorn) Shape/system (Xing) (per Men Baozhen to Xie Peiqi), and now that we can see video of the YYBPZ people and Xiao haibo's students I'm even more sure of it.

How Fan Zhiyong came about learning it is unknowable at this point.

Xie Peiqi learned some meditation stuff from Fan's daughter and at that time she wasn't teaching anything martial, but this may have been at Men Baozhen's request that she not show him anything because he was still focused on learning the Qian Trigram Lion Shape. But this still doesn't hint to the origin of Fan Zhiyong's Martial Bagua as we know that he was taught various sitting meditation practices from DHC.

Maybe we'll never know though.

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