Fixed step PH question

[everything]

Question on how you like to do fixed step push hands vs. moving step. My friends and I have become disenchanted with fixed step since at some point it seems silly not to move your feet when everything starts with footwork. However, we find something useful about fixed step - it's a little easier to start with to train the various whole body connections, and we don't want to go all out to moving step while we take this slow. We'd like to do a limited drill with only a little freedom within a contained structure for now, sort of like positional sparring in bjj where in our beginner class we sometimes just pass the guard or escape the mount and then reset, without trying to go to infinite submissions, etc. for the time being.

We thought we should do something in between fixed step and moving step - how do you prefer to do that? Any advice for us for a drill that sort of splits the difference?

[Dmitri]

I'm not sure there's anything in-between... It's a binary thing, you either step or you don't.
Get the benefits from the fixed-step drills, and do the moving/stepping stuff in addition to it, to "unlearn" the "stationary feet" habits acquired from the first drill (which are of course a very bad idea when fighting.) The two will "feed" one another, i.e. the skills will begin to spill over from one set to the other as you progress. That's the "common ground" you're looking for I believe; again, IMHO there is no middle ground there -- you either move feet or you don't.

This is also one of the reasons I don't like the way A LOT of people do push-hands, where they "move feet a little". If you allow the feet to move then you don't learn the other skill set as well as you would otherwise (from fixed-step work), and at the same time you don't really train any good footwork either, you just shuffle feet around to compensate for lack of "internal understanding" in your body to achieve the "pushing" goals (to "win" a PH encounter), which is neither here nor there, and is IMO detrimental to one's development, on a larger scale.

FWIW

P.S. It's good that you don't get caught in that fixed-step game. It's a fun little game, but ya gotta move on at some point... It's just one of the many drills. Sooo, good for you guys.

[everything]

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean, thanks a lot. We probably should do fixed and moving but I was hoping for a non-binary answer. I think the common ground I'm looking for, without skipping the benefit of fixed step work, is taking one step instead of just doing a shift of weight. If we practiced a move like piquan as solo practice, we'd practice it with stepping to coordinate the upper and lower, etc. So I'm thinking we might take one step in
1) "issuing" lightly to practice coordinating with a step against a live partner, not just using a weight shift with fixed feet, or
2) defensively (or simultaneously offensively) to get a sense of the minimal step necessary to change the angle while still maintaining root and listening and so on, without getting into the chaos of full moving.
We haven't really tried this yet. Well, that is, we've tried 1) and 2) as yet another drill independent of fixed step ph but I thought that might be combined to do the "limited step".

[DeusTrismegistus]

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean, thanks a lot. We probably should do fixed and moving but I was hoping for a non-binary answer. I think the common ground I'm looking for, without skipping the benefit of fixed step work, is taking one step instead of just doing a shift of weight. If we practiced a move like piquan as solo practice, we'd practice it with stepping to coordinate the upper and lower, etc. So I'm thinking we might take one step in
1) "issuing" lightly to practice coordinating with a step against a live partner, not just using a weight shift with fixed feet, or
2) defensively (or simultaneously offensively) to get a sense of the minimal step necessary to change the angle while still maintaining root and listening and so on, without getting into the chaos of full moving.
We haven't really tried this yet. Well, that is, we've tried 1) and 2) as yet another drill independent of fixed step ph but I thought that might be combined to do the "limited step".

You only need to step back when yielding if you are still being pushed (or knocked) back after you have completely shifted. Something I like to do to practice learning when you need to step and when not to is to have someone hit or push me, I shift back and try to feel if the shift alone has redirected the force completely out of me, if so I practice that a few times then tell them to hit or push harder. Eventually it should get to where you can't stay completely centered when you shift back so you need to step. Your partner needs to be able to follow you. The important thing about following is that you step to the correct distance so you don't have to adjust your feet forward or back to be able to push or hit them correctly.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

[qiphlow]

the fixed-step i am familiar with allows a shuffle-type step forward if attacking, or the same backward if defending, hence the designation of fixed step (the footwork rules are quite limited). i agree with the need for all types of footwork to be used in PH practice.

[Nick C]

I think both PH styles have issues - particularly when related to competitions. Fixed Step is good if both practitioners really try to use Tai Chi principles as it teaches root, body movements, techniques and gives opportunity to think about principles without too much agression / force. BUT it tends to end up being one person leaning way too far forward (or bending way too far back) to push / pull someone enough to move a foot in competitions. It also teaches bad practices when compaired to actualy martial applications around pulling towards the body etc. eg Tai Chi principle says that if someone is pulling you forward, you should move forward and deliver force (if open to do so) - ie dont resist the move forward - and "give more" to them. In fixed step the person that does that loses because they move their foot first.

Moving Step of course allows for all the correct principles to be used - unfortunately it tends to lead towards wrestling, judo style throws and altogether far too much force. Why? Probably because people do it too early in their Tai Chi training / understanding, and of course once you win using force, it is very hard to change your approach etc. Of course with 2 practitioners who are high level, using Tai Chi principles etc then this is definately the most "real" option.

So I guess my belief would be start with fixed step - concentrate on principles etc, then slowly move towards moving step. My only advice is never forget that Tai Chi is a martial art, so no matter if you win or lose in PH, you need to think about if you won or lost using Tai Chi principles that are martial in aspect (not just what makes someone win because of the "rules")

Bit of a ramble but hope that makes sense

[Bao]

I like fixed PH better, but also, I am more used to this. Moving becomes to much move around and keep away. So sometimes there will be to little action for me. Stationary PH will force you into action.

[Walk the Torque]

Tai Chi principle says that if someone is pulling you forward, you should move forward and deliver force (if open to do so) - ie dont resist the move forward - and "give more" to them. In fixed step the person that does that loses because they move their foot first.

Just to offer an alternative view; another skill we were taught in Push hands was to rebound the opponants attacking force, and therebye "using their own force agianst them".

This is how we practiced up-rooting, unbalancing, trapping and neutralizing. With this skill (introduced to me as "borrowing energy") keeping the feet fixed makes a lot of sense. This is particularily effective the stronger the force used by your opponant is. If they are really trying to get you there is far more energy at your disposal. If there skill is greater and they can apply soft jins, then your timing, sensitivity and economy of motion has to be more honed to deal with it.

Intercepting force is also an aspect of tai ji as I learnt it; and I do believe is a crucial element in learning the martial. "He moves, I move first". To develop this kind of skill, fixed step is a good way to go. Moving step only enhances this ability.

[Nick C]

Tai Chi principle says that if someone is pulling you forward, you should move forward and deliver force (if open to do so) - ie dont resist the move forward - and "give more" to them. In fixed step the person that does that loses because they move their foot first.

Just to offer an alternative view; another skill we were taught in Push hands was to rebound the opponants attacking force, and therebye "using their own force agianst them".

This is how we practiced up-rooting, unbalancing, trapping and neutralizing. With this skill (introduced to me as "borrowing energy") keeping the feet fixed makes a lot of sense. This is particularily effective the stronger the force used by your opponant is. If they are really trying to get you there is far more energy at your disposal. If there skill is greater and they can apply soft jins, then your timing, sensitivity and economy of motion has to be more honed to deal with it.

Intercepting force is also an aspect of tai ji as I learnt it; and I do believe is a crucial element in learning the martial. "He moves, I move first". To develop this kind of skill, fixed step is a good way to go. Moving step only enhances this ability.

I agree that intercept is crucial to Tai Chi development, as with neutralising, uprooting etc etc. My point was more around FS competitions, and the case of someone grabbing and pulling towards themselves (obviously the opponent has missed the opportunity to intercept at that point). The FS rules make this a winning situation for the person pulling counter to Tai Chi principles. Watching all the "competition PH" on you tube gives numerous examples of this situation. Its crazy.

[everything]

Thanks for the ideas. We are only interested in drills, not competitions. We'll try all of the above, I think.

[Walk the Torque]

Tai Chi principle says that if someone is pulling you forward, you should move forward and deliver force (if open to do so) - ie dont resist the move forward - and "give more" to them. In fixed step the person that does that loses because they move their foot first.

Just to offer an alternative view; another skill we were taught in Push hands was to rebound the opponants attacking force, and therebye "using their own force agianst them".

This is how we practiced up-rooting, unbalancing, trapping and neutralizing. With this skill (introduced to me as "borrowing energy") keeping the feet fixed makes a lot of sense. This is particularily effective the stronger the force used by your opponant is. If they are really trying to get you there is far more energy at your disposal. If there skill is greater and they can apply soft jins, then your timing, sensitivity and economy of motion has to be more honed to deal with it.

Intercepting force is also an aspect of tai ji as I learnt it; and I do believe is a crucial element in learning the martial. "He moves, I move first". To develop this kind of skill, fixed step is a good way to go. Moving step only enhances this ability.

I agree that intercept is crucial to Tai Chi development, as with neutralising, uprooting etc etc. My point was more around FS competitions, and the case of someone grabbing and pulling towards themselves (obviously the opponent has missed the opportunity to intercept at that point). The FS rules make this a winning situation for the person pulling counter to Tai Chi principles. Watching all the "competition PH" on you tube gives numerous examples of this situation. Its crazy.

Hey Nick,

You reminded me of why I replyed in the first place. Regarding the pulling thing; it is possible to apply the "borrowing" /bouncing force back technique to a pull. We had a saying at our school, "a push to a push, and a pull to a pull". This doesn't mean that we resisted every movement of our opponant. We spent many hours learning how to up-root our opponants from a pull as well as a push.

Force is force; it doesn't matter which way it is moving. It can be followed, bounced back or rotated off to another direction from a push, pull, strike, attempted throw or lock.

I think it a great shame that more time is not spent on maintaining central equilibrium from pulling attacks as well as pushes in push hands. Their seems to be an emphesis on pushes and applying jin to pushes, which IMO has done a far amount of disservice to the art.

[Nick C]

Hey Nick,

You reminded me of why I replyed in the first place. Regarding the pulling thing; it is possible to apply the "borrowing" /bouncing force back technique to a pull. We had a saying at our school, "a push to a push, and a pull to a pull". This doesn't mean that we resisted every movement of our opponant. We spent many hours learning how to up-root our opponants from a pull as well as a push.

Force is force; it doesn't matter which way it is moving. It can be followed, bounced back or rotated off to another direction from a push, pull, strike, attempted throw or lock.

I think it a great shame that more time is not spent on maintaining central equilibrium from pulling attacks as well as pushes in push hands. Their seems to be an emphesis on pushes and applying jin to pushes, which IMO has done a far amount of disservice to the art.

I agree with you!

In terms of detail, I think the response should depend on the situation basically. Also timing on what is basically the whole concept of interception is probably the most important, and dependant on what you should do. Generally if you are late, then leading or going with the force is the more in touch with principles, because to try an intercept action at that point normally requires a lot of force. Get the timing right, and intercept is extremely effective and recommended. But I would not recommend a student start with learning intercept first, as it is too easy to get confused with too much force - and lead to the whole pushing situation you mention above.

It also depends on what they are pulling and how / where to. If they are pulling directly towards their body (as seen in most competitions), then the easiest, fastest and most direct way to deal with it is allow them to do it, and deliver into their body. They are essentially falling in that direction already. If the opponent is pulling in a slightly different direction, then following is generally not as appropriate as rotating off / intercepting etc.

I guess to me the most important is it should flow, should not be forced, nor require too much force (we are talking up to the moment of delivery, as opposed to the actual delivery of force of course). If it follows those principles - then its all good IMHO

It sounds like you practice the various situations and responses, which is definately the way to go. My personal frustration is basically that the "rules" of these FS or MS push hands creates a type of behaviour and practice which is counter to Tai Chi, and seems a great shame for the future of the art. To me it is part of the reason soo many people think Tai Chi sucks, is not effective, and cant be used as a real martial art.