Touchy subject... Jing related?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby Interloper on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:34 am

Thanks for the formal description of jing. It's an interesting concept.
Hey, I know lots about male sexuality stuff because I get LOTS of educational spam about it in my e-mail! ;D

I wasn't talking about masturbating, I was talking about "having sex" -- and that the "spent" feeling is more likely due to the amount the physical engagement required to carry out that act with another person. Factor in all of the expenditures, physiological, physical-muscular, emotional/mental, and they do add up. As for masturbation, you may not feel "spent," but you probably can't do it again for a while, due to the refractory period -- which is also physiological and not anything to do with losing energy from the teaspoonful of ejaculate itself.

However, life is all about reproduction/genetic replication, and while humans are particularly long-lived and capable of having numerous sexual engagements without losing their "life force," there are many organisms that are "programmed" by their evolutionary traits to focus all of their energy in rapid growth and development to the point of reproductive capability, then to reproduce once and die. Think of salmon spending years at sea putting on enough body mass to make the arduous journey back to their freshwater birthplace to spawn and die. Or desert wildflowers that sprout from a seed with the winter/spring rains, grow rapidly then flower, produce seeds, then die -- all within a period of a couple or a few weeks. It's all about genetic replication, and the expenditure of energy to do so. You save up everything you can in a "bank account" of energy, then blow the whole wad at once, and fade into organic bankruptsy (i.e. death). But if your genes live on through progeny, it was worth the investment.

Humans put a lot of energy into sexual reproduction, but I'd say that it's women who must invest far more than men do. That's why male bodies can afford to "invest" in muscle and size (the purpose of which is to be able to compete for females and the resources with which to support them and any potential offspring), while female bodies must conserve those aspects and instead focus on the internal use of energy to prepare for, nurture and give birth to life. A spoonful of jism vs. monthly ovulation, uterine preparation, hormone fluxuations, pregnancy, childbirth and lactation.Yet, women on average live years longer then men. Doesn't seem an even distribution, eh? ;)

D_Glenn wrote:Interloper, well it would probably help if you at least learned what jing is. It's not the "splooge" at all. It's basically an energy that is involved in cell replication and is normally dispersed throughout the blood and entire body but during sex the Prenatal and Postnatal Jing are brought down into the male's genitals in order to help the sperm and egg begin replicating if conception occurs. Prenatal jing is related to stem cells and cell death. The taoists believe that there is a limited amount of times the Key can be duplicated before the organism begins to decay and die. Loss of prenatal jing is another time that replication must occur, and the loss of Postnatal jing throughout the body in order for the male to have sex means a lack of growth and healing in the rest of the body until it rebuilds.

Actually after masturbation us men don't feel "spent", actually invigorated as the Yang is raised up, it's after sex with a woman (especially at night) that we feel exhausted from gaining the woman's Yin, the woman taking our Yang (you feel awake and energized), and we get a huge melatonin (yin) dump and can't help but to pass out. - so you know.

.
Last edited by Interloper on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby johnrieber on Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:52 am

i've always wondered how a vasectomy affects all this. in theory.

i mean, you're not transmitting anything resembling 'life' anymore--by western standards, anyway. just fluids.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby qiphlow on Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:26 pm

with a vasectomy, ejaculation is normal--it's just that the sperm are prevented from joining the party due to road closures.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:51 pm

I'm getting a hard on just reading this thread.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:19 pm

Interloper, I do agree with a lot of that except that 'jing' isn't really something that could be felt in a short period of time, the effects you're speaking of are an issue of 'qi' which the loss of and replenishing of is happening in a shorter time frame of 1 to 72 hours. Jing is in a longer time frame of weeks to years, women are on a 7 year cycle while men are on an 8 year cycle. The loss of jing isn't really felt as it is basically the life process of aging, preserving jing on the other hand is noticed in mild improvements in strength and health. In a man at around the 7th day of abstinence they will notice an improvement in leg strength and flexibility, again improving more around the 14th and 21st day with a dramatic improvement in depth and strength of a squat. This is something that you will probably not comprehend as you're already going roughly 30 days without a loss, although it's a different story after menopause.
Women will lose a lot of jing in the placenta, but after their 1st birth their middle dantian lowers slightly and they will have better aerobic capability measured in VO2max.
Women have an abundance of the Yin hormones produced in the adrenals - the corticosteroidal hormones such as the stress handler: cortisol, but they have less of the Yang hormones that produce quick energy and strength - the adrenaline hormones - nor and epinephine- the vasodilators and they turn on testosterone in the muscles etc.

Think of jing as the energy for and function of replication of all cells, hormones, enzymes etc. in the body, with a connection to the genome or rather the epigenome which can be changed in ones lifetime for good or bad and then passed on to the offspring - Jing is cell growth. Qi is the energies produced in the cells and organs in order to function. Shen is like the feedback loop of enzymes and messengers that runs the operations of growth, signalling, movement, energy use, basically all functions in the body (all(?) of which have secondary methods when there is a lack of enzymes) - an abundance of Jing and Qi ensures the abundance and proper functioning of the enzymes (Shen). --to try and put it into western terms. fwiw :-\

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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby 64Palms on Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:33 pm

InternalBoxerGuy wrote:I know and I've read all about these masters saying that people that had to much sex had bad knees later in life and aged poorly, I'm not sure if it's a myth or what but... what about...

Well... getting rid of an urge by yourself? Does it have the same effect? I've heard western doctors say it's healthy, but the chinese daoists... were they talking about 2 people having sex or just that..uh... one act.

Trying not to be graphic here :(


This shouldn't be a touchy subject for those who are serious about the IMA or medical / health related components of martial arts. There are actually quite a few points of view on the subject of sexual acts within Daoist and other Chinese ideological practices. Masturbation in itself is essentially as loss of seminal essence or Jing. I think posters above have stated well enough what this is in substantial and insubstantial terms. If you look into the ancient texts, such as the Su Nu Jing and the Qian Jin Yao Fang you will see the varying views. However, if one takes a hermeneutic approach and understands who the intended audience was of these texts were, then the understanding becomes clearer. For instance in the Su Nu Jing the audience is the supposed Yellow Emperor, a man of infinite wisdom and at this stage, of reasonable age. The sexual advice given was in regards to two people and resolved around gaining as much essence from your partner but not ejaculating yourself. In the Qian Jin Yao Fang, Sun Si Miao discusses that age is more appropriate as such:

“Theory says that most people below the age of forty will give way to their carnal desires, but when one reaches the age forty, he will suddenly feel the Qi grow weak.” “The real meaning of this study is to eliminate disease through sex…Thus some people who take medicines to increase their sex drive despite being below the age of forty will meet with disaster. One must be careful. Below the age of forty, one need not enter into discussions of the study of sex.”

Most texts do give instruction on age, in accordance with the above, that is, until one reaches the age of forty there is no real danger unless they a constitutionally weak. Some say that until the ages of approx. 20 - 30 once a day is ok, 30+ once a week, 40+ once a month - to once every 100 days to none at all. Other practitioners of both martial arts and medicine state that celibacy is vital for certain practices (for example if you were to read Ma Chuan Xu's interview).

Ejaculation is a loss of Jing, whether one is with another or by oneself. Some texts state that ejaculation is "losing", "dying" and so on. The practice of seminal retention and the method of "internal" ejaculation is, in my opinion, essential to the practice of IMA and CM which are ingrained in Daoist concepts, theories etc. Moderation is the key. And sexual practice can be much more enjoyable to those who do practice this way. My advice would be to start slow - under no means should you stop altogether - this can be damaging to circulation and cause undesirable retention within the prostate area - leading to the complications set out in modern medicine such as prostatitis and cancer.

Having said all that - if you stop having sex but keep getting blindingly drunk every night, eating fast food etc - that is not taking care of yourself in a wholistic manner - then there is no real point! I have many students and patients that ask me about this subject - i always say first ensure that your diet, sleep, and exercise is regular, that your emotions are somewhat balanced then approach the sexual practices in your own time.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby zenshiite on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:34 pm

An earlier poster mentioned that some Taoists say not to ejaculate at all... I think, if my memory serves, that was largely Taoist monks. There's a whole slew of info about ejaculation frequency depending upon the age and constitution of the dude in question. If you're weak you might want to refrain until you build up, if you're strong and say... 25 years old... you can pretty much do it as often as possible, but the older you get the more you want to be aware of how often you're busting off.

Also, seasons are important to take into consideration. Summer, you can more, in winter... not so much.
Last edited by zenshiite on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:46 pm

Barlow:

You are just, absolutely, the uber mensch of this forum. I never, ever expected to see that edition of Brass Eye again. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This was the funniest thing I had ever seen.

Says everything about the US Erection Campaign, as far as I am concerned.

Again - thank you.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:46 am

Heh ;D You're too kind...

Brass Eye was one of those rare TV things that was soooo good it couldn't possibly exist for more than one series (and a paedophilia special). I hope that Chris Morris chap does something else soon, because he's up there with Banksy for me as divinely inspired ;D

Anyway, back to wanking....
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby neijia_boxer on Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:30 am

i dont know about you guys , but i hadnt had sex in like a week and then came wednesday "hump day" n I got some, i think it tapered off some excessive energy cause i went to class afterwards and trained well.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:38 am

That's too much information. I have no interest in your "hump day"...
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:43 am

neijia_boxer wrote:i dont know about you guys , but i hadnt had sex in like a week and then came wednesday "hump day" n I got some, i think it tapered off some excessive energy cause i went to class afterwards and trained well.


You and your "cute thai girl"... lol....

Bust a couple shots for mixy!!!!!!!


j/k, just practicing my creepy skillz.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby neijia_boxer on Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:51 am

Based on this thread...i wonder how many EF'ers are going to dress up as a giant sperm for halloween.
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby nianfong on Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:26 pm

this thread brings a whole new explanation for why taichi forms have so many "single whips"
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Re: Touchy subject... Jing related?

Postby Andy_S on Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:00 pm

BTW, for those who missed it: Do yourself a favor and check out the clip Graham posted (at the bottom of the previous page). The comedian who did it - Britain's greatest ever? - has, I believe, been taken off the air for good. It was the CIA wot did it, obviously.

Anyway, the key point is "spending one's jing" is one thing, but "spending one's jing" during a press conference is...oh, maestro!
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