China's martial arts state: An article by Yang Hai

[xingyijuan]

Hey guys,

Here is an article that Mr Yang wrote about some of the questions he personally encountered about traditional martial arts mean in China.

http://internalstyle.com/index.php?opti ... es&lang=en

He offers another perspective on what is the state of Chinese martial arts in its motherland. I was personally brought to believe, by what my previous school taught and what information was available on the Web and in magazines, that traditional martial arts was dead in Mainland China after the Communist takeover and the Cultural Revolution. Now, with the opening of China, we start to see more and more traditional masters "pop up" here and there and get a better understanding of what happened, and a better glimpse of some less known styles. I hope this will be a first step in breaking the "bad rep" that traditional Chinese martial arts from mainland China got over the years. Enjoy!

J

[ParryPerson]

I like his viewpoints. I appreciate my teacher more after reading that.

Surely not "all" TCMA left but I think it would be fair to say "quite a bit".

[neijia_boxer]

i dig what he said about how many people from Taiwan and Hong kong try to be more authentic saying that Communist killed the Chinese martial arts and they are the shitznit. Still however as WUSHU is a collective word for ALL CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS, people still assume wushu as modern communist forms and forget the traditional side of Chinese martial arts.

Its a touchy subject since even the modern wushu is derived from traditional wushu. The level of athletic ability it takes to perform modern wushu and all the scientific research to make a better athlete, has made for strong wushu athletes, even the modern wushu stylist practice traditional, some started in traditional, and if they did not they graduated to traditional. Ive seen some modern wushu people perform more interesting pakua and xingyi forms than some people who say wushu is shit and then these traditionalist who try to annihilate modern chinese athletes do some stale ass form with no flexibility or decent stance work.

[klonk]

Very interesting and well put essay. (Minor international typos--such as signing a weaver.)

I'm going to enjoy Yang Hai's site, I can tell. Thanks for tipping us off to its existence.

[xingyijuan]

Surely not "all" TCMA left but I think it would be fair to say "quite a bit".

I think the main idea he's pointing to is that even if a lot of people were persecuted for political affiliations or religious beliefs, not all of them were martial arts masters. And, consequently, all the masters that fled or were killed were not *all* the masters at that point in time in China. The Communist party had no real interest in martial arts masters. Only if they were political or religious (cult) font figures that they were persecuted. There is no tie between martial arts and politics unless the people practicing said art had such a tie. IMO, there lies the core of the misunderstanding that was put forth during all these years.

The masters that stayed behind did continue to teach traditional material. As I understand it, the "standardization", or "wushu-ization", of some of the forms were an effort to make a showcase of the styles to promote them as a national sport. The traditional material was still taught by many masters, only less seen.

[Andy_S]

I love Yang Hai's clips, but as for this - is there anything new there?

His answer to the first question is debatable: Who certifies MA teachers who teach in parks, their homes, etc? And what are the standards? Does a middle-aged lady who teaches 24-form Taiji to old ducks in the park at dawn have to be able to fight with it? (After all, she may face a challenge, right...?)

Moreover, his contention that in the last century only one new Chinese style has appeared (I-chuan) is questionable. What about sanda? You can say it is "not a style, it is just a format of fighting" but clearly, today, sanda is a recognizable style. Although I suppose that, given its techniques and training methods, perhaps it is not really "Chinese"...? Moreover, even Chris Crudelli managed to track down one young master who had created his own form of wushu (which looked very serviceable). A bigger question might be "How does a new style become accepted by the TCMA community in China?" (If there is, indeed, such a thing...)

[edededed]

Andy: I think that taijiquan is the one art that is sort of given a free ride in that respect

As for yiquan, I guess that is what he means - the only "new" style within the last century to be widely accepted by the TCMA community as a new style (and that gathered many new practitioners). Others, like xinhuizhang, luoxuanquan, xiangxingquan, and so on, are known today but practiced by few.

As for the Cultural Revolution, my opinion is that yes, a lot of martial arts DID disappear - although people did continue to teach and practice, it was far harder to do so than before (people had to hide, manuals were taken away/destroyed, etc.). There are many anecdotes about the difficulties of this time. Obviously, though, there were still people practicing and teaching, and some material made it to our time (while others may have not). Another note is that some people were lucky to be in the Communist party during this time, which helped somewhat.

[xingyijuan]

Interesting responses.

Andy, unless you want to fight ducks at dawn, do you consider what that old lady is doing "martial" art? It's kind of a pointless turn of discussion you are engaging there.

I don't think there is "certification" in the black-belt or paper certificate sense of the meaning, but there is "recognition". That recognition comes from open practice and open challenges.

A bigger question might be "How does a new style become accepted by the TCMA community in China?" (If there is, indeed, such a thing...)

I think it's pretty clear from the article that it is through open challenges. Also, I wonder how many CMA masters consider "san-da" a "style"...

[Pandrews1982]

I agree with Andy, nothing much new there, I've heard it all before and in more detail from other sources. Nice introductory or background reading though.

I'm not so sure about not changing traditional styles, times change, situations change, styles change.

Going back just over 100 years and you'd be looking at Bagua as a "new" style. What about the variations in bagua, gau, yin, cheng? What about the massive xing yi influence in most bagua systems?

What about Che and Song Xing Yi these also aren't too much older than 100 years.

Yi Quan was a derivative of Xing Yi, is this a branch of Xing Yi or a new style? Sun Tai Chi was a new style but again a derivative, does this make it new? Why is Yi Quan a new style and Sun Tai Chi not? Is it because Yi Quan is no longer called Xing Yi? It still has the same Xing Yi principles just different parts are emphasised.

Look at how many "styles" of tai chi there are, Yang, Chen, Wu, Li etc.

What makes a "new" style? How different does something have to be? Is it all down to originality? or changing the name of something to make it seem new? or what?

I've always been told that a high level ability of Xing Yi is to experiment and develop your own style of fighting, Sun Lu Tang and Wang Ziangzhai obviously did this but there are many other personal variations in Xing Yi too, are these wrong because they deviate from the classical postures and movements? I think not. It would be foolish to begin to change things too early in your training and loose out on the structure and foundation that the art gives, it is definately not something the raw beginner could successfuly attempt, but at some point you want to start to play around with how you can personal embody the principles of the art. A big guy may emphasise some aspects whilst a smaller person uses others, there are 10/12 animals in classical Xing Yi, maybe another 4 or 5 which appear in other branches (e.g. wild cat, lion, crane etc) and thousands of others in nature you can draw experience from so there is a massive scope to change even this one art. Xing yi is an overarching term which encompases an ideology of principles, the expression of these principles becomes individual once you are past a rudimentary level, to not explore these things and to just follow the classical movements like a robot is to ignore a major part of the art. I am quite sure the same can be said for Tai chi and bagua and any other art actually.

I agree with Ed's take on the cultural revolution, many artists would have suffered persecution, especially the working class who could not buy their way out of trouble and those in the party would have been less likely to get trouble. Millons died due to failed agricultural policy, or were persecuted for not following the party line, others fled abroad, not just to taiwan but malaysia, japan etc. Of those that were left many would have been careful taught in secret, tried not to draw attention to themselves. I don't think its completely true that the communists weren't interested in MA they obviously were in order to further develop the modern wushu which the nationalists had begun to promote. The cultural revolution was all about supressing outdated traditional ways and bringing in new ways, it was trying to say History starts with Mao. I'm sure that there were many that got through it okay but I'm sure there were others that got a rough ride too. I see what Sifu Yang is trying to say, not everything moved to taiwan, and I would agree with him. Though more people are comign out of the woodwork in China I still think there are probably a lot of people even today on the mainland who still don't want attention brought onto their martial arts in order to live a quiet life.

P

[neijia_boxer]

I still think its nice to have new perspectives from a chinese expert. I applaud Yang Hai for going out of his way to promote chines martial arts.

I've have several teachers all having reservations about making websites and sharing info on the web and participating in forums and email marketing. They just dont care to. The teachers I speak about did excel in chinese martial arts- they went to Universities in China where you can get a Masters degree in CMA and choose to study under grandmasters of various styles both Traditional and Modern. They also coached city teams and have national recognition in the Mainland.

One of my teachers who did graduate from Shanghai Physical Education institute witha master's degree did have to know applications, san shou, and fighting as well as forms, weapons, theory, and history. Liu He xinyi is very popular there.

whatever happened in china's past- martial arts is still there and will not go away.

pandrews1982 brought up some good insight into Sun Lu Tangs, sun Tai chi and Yiquan. interesting read.

[Josealb]

Sure its nothing new....sure that this has been said before...but how many of us have actually heard it from somebody who lived it? Its not second hand information, it is based on personal experience and that counts for allot. I bet if Yang Hai wanted, he could provide little details about these topics that most of us haven't heard before.

[Little Bai]

Another note is that some people were lucky to be in the Communist party during this time, which helped somewhat.

Actually, that is one of the biggest misconception about the Cultural Revolution. Being in the party at that time did not help, it was actually another factor that made one a potential target for the Red Guards - at least if one had a position of authority. The Cultural Revolution was not a party-based mass movement, it was directed AGAINST the party. And even though the Chinese count the time from 1966 (the official start of the CR) until Mao's death in 1976 as the "Cultural Revolution", the period of "smashing the four olds" - which was the time where martial artists (among many others, high-ranking party cadres being the main targets) were targeted by the rebellious students - "only" lasted from the end of 1966 until early 1968. Apart from that, single martial artists may of course still have been persecuted due to standing on the wrong side (in politics), but not as a group per se. I think it would be as difficult as it would be interesting to study the concrete effects of the Cultural Revolution on martial arts traditions.

[mixjourneyman]

Another note is that some people were lucky to be in the Communist party during this time, which helped somewhat.

Actually, that is one of the biggest misconception about the Cultural Revolution. Being in the party at that time did not help, it was actually another factor that made one a potential target for the Red Guards - at least if one had a position of authority. The Cultural Revolution was not a party-based mass movement, it was directed AGAINST the party. And even though the Chinese count the time from 1966 (the official start of the CR) until Mao's death in 1976 as the "Cultural Revolution", the period of "smashing the four olds" - which was the time where martial artists (among many others, high-ranking party cadres being the main targets) were targeted by the rebellious students - "only" lasted from the end of 1966 until early 1968. Apart from that, single martial artists may of course still have been persecuted due to standing on the wrong side (in politics), but not as a group per se. I think it would be as difficult as it would be interesting to study the concrete effects of the Cultural Revolution on martial arts traditions.

This is basically true FWIW.
Mao and the gang of four really rallied to reform culture, but it is hard to say how much of an effect it would have had on martial artists.
An amusing anecdote is that during the time Jiang Qing was reforming culture, the only entertainment on television were six operas and two plays that she produced herself.
Also, yes for sure the red guard went against certain factions of the party, such as right wing elements like Deng Xiaoping, which is ironic, considering that Deng was likely mostly responsible for pulling China out of its economic slump in the 1980's.
But I digress.

[edededed]

Yeah, I would say that being in the Communist Party mostly only helped after the Cultural Revolution was over.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I don't think there is "certification" in the black-belt or paper certificate sense of the meaning, but there is "recognition". That recognition comes from open practice and open challenges.
SNIP

Well this is the problem with the article, IMHO. Where do these open challenges take place? Who oversees them? How does this gain rep? In this, the age of the internet and the digicam, why are said challenges - which, the article maintains, is where recognition comes in lieu of any form or organized qualification system - not filmed? I don't do judo but I love its system: You fight (in public competition, before your peers) and that determines your ranking. It is open and transparent.

As for Taiji being a martial art: Good question. I know for a fact that some of the Chen village lads HAVE taken challenges in the village. So yes, they are martial. The old ducks in the park? Almost certainly not. But what of the, say, mid-30s Taiji player who does mainly forms, a bit of PH and maybe knows a few applications. Is this MA or something that falls between the cracks?