CMA lack of impact in the Western World

[Andy_S]

Reading over and contributing to McKinley's boxing thread, and doing the same on a thread Chud posted across the street, I ask:
How much of an impact have CMA made in the West? And why is it so minimal?

To put the above into context:
Boxing's training and competing methods have had a very significant influence on Asian MAs, but this does not seem to have been reciprocated. And modern MMA, the traditional Asian MA - bar Judo and Thai - have been largely left out of the picture, in terms of both technique and training methodologies. Morever, the multiplicity of gongfu training methods - stancework, qigong, solo forms, sensitivity training, body-part hardening, etc, etc, etc, - just have not made any mainstream impact on either MMA - or, indeed, on the much, much wider corpus of Western/modern sports to any degree that I am aware of.

While there are, of course, "kungfu" clubs and schools in every major city in Western Europe and North America, why has the discipline proven so restricted? Chinese cuisine has made a massive impact worldwide, acupuncture is steadily gaining acceptance, and the importance of learning the Chinese language has never been greater. But CMA has really gone nowhere beyond its own limited borders of MArtists.

Indeed, I would argue that the greatest contribution it has made in the Western world is not in terms of self-defense, physical conditioning or sport training, but in popular culture - the "kungfu movie."

Thoughts?

[RobP]

Maybe because they don't deliver what they promise in the movies?

Just a thought

cheers
Rob

[GrahamB]

How much of an impact have CMA made in the West? And why is it so minimal?

Thoughts?

On the contrary, Andy - Bruce Lee's (and hence CMA) impact was absolutely HUGE in the West. One of my students is a Professor of Cultural Studies at Cardiff University - he's written essays and given lectures about the impact of Bruce Lee on culture in the west (very academic stuff, not that light reading - he writes books with titles like: "The Truth of Žižek,") He's currently working on a book: Theorizing Bruce Lee (Rodopi, 2009, forthcoming).

Lee's impact absolutely monumental. People still make animal noises and adopt a Bruce Lee stance when you mention "Kung Fu". Even that song by Nizlopi that went to No.1 in the UK a couple of years ago contained cultural references to Bruce Lee in the lyrics:



"My Dad's Bruce Lee..."

I wonder how many of today's MMA types were under the spell of Bruce Lee movies in their youth....

[edededed]

Hmm - impact of CMA in the West?

- Adoption of the so-called "butterfly kick" by taekwondo stylists, stuntmen, and figure skaters all around the world
- Adoption of the so-called "kip-up" by taekwondo stylists, stuntment, and soccer players all around the world (or did they have that already?)
- Replacement of boring-old kendo moves with flashy, kewl wushu moves for Jedi knights, barbarians, and other movie swashbucklers (including 3D-rendered ones)
- I would guess that Pilates, reflexology, and other similar fields have been influenced significantly by CMA/TCM
- Lots of taijiquan used in ads, commercials, and sometimes business retreats of dubious purpose

I would guess that because of the huge variety of CMA and the small number of each, it would be hard to make a big influence on anything. Wushu and taijiquan, with their large amount of practitioners, have probably influenced more than others.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

ok, ill bite.

but first, tkd is not a western art. it's korean and ergo cma has made an impact on other asian arts this is true.

but, it has not been used to gain a significant win against any western fighting methods and that's it in a nutshell.

except for ho yun jia way back in the day before any of us, there just aren't many tellings of kungfu guys being able to take on western martial stylings be it wrestling, boxing, military arts etc.

most every venture of a kungfu guy into a competitive venue such as mma has not produced any significant amount of wins that makes anyone go "hey, that's impressive".

Even Cung Le, the great hope of kungfu has seriously adopted the western mma training methods in order to even meet the standards of competition at those levels.

most asian martial artists are hobbyists, and the greater majority are kind of out of shape folks looking for mysticism mixed in with their training and they don't really got the true modality of attack and defense anywhere except in their thinking.

If Kungfu can make that leap...and I doubt it, there may be adoption. Otherwise, just be happy in your practice.

[edededed]

Well, for example, I don't think CMA people taught the "butterfly kick" to TKD stylists, figure skaters, etc... I think the people who wanted to learn it just figured it out themselves by watching videos, etc....

But for things like taijiquan, baguazhang, xingyiquan - it may be a bit too complex to just "steal" like that... (Remember that people have always been conservative teaching this stuff.)

[Darth Rock&Roll]

It's said that Yang learned tai chi by watching and secretly "stealing" it from Chen.

just sayin...

[edededed]

Well, and THEN he got detailed teaching to smooth things out

[Interloper]

CMA may have made a pop-cultural impact on the West, thanks to Bruce Lee and his successors, but the CMAs themselves as a practice have not, probably because they are too esoteric and too much work for most people.

As for the non-Western MAs that "made it," Taekwondo, which has been de-martialized (and so is not so threatening-looking to soccer moms) and now the mall dojang is a fine babysitter for kids.

[Royal Dragon]

The Butterfly kick was in Ice skating long before Kung Fu. Infact, Kung Fu most likely got it from them, or classical dance rather than the other way around.

[Chris McKinley]

Andy,

Keeping in mind that you are talking CMA in general, and not any one set of arts in particular, I'd say on first blush the reason is because well over 99% of CMA is overly-stylized unrealistic bullshit, just for starters. Part of that is the predilection for holistic/poetic metaphor in physical movement, versus a Western "who cares what it resembles...does it work?" mindset.

Not to be trivialized is the inconvenient fact of Westerners' much larger stature and strength on average, especially among the warrior caste where martial approaches generally originate. Certain Western methods (not necessarily all) still work when applied against a 6' 4" 260lb. Norseman or Scotsman, where a whole lot of CMA's arsenal is left flapping in the breeze. Try any of the wushu-y nonsense that edededed referenced against a feisty cornfed northern German lad and all he's gonna do is smile at your pretty dancing. The tenet surrounding CMA that their material can work regardless of how big and strong an opponent is has been overly mythologized. Frankly, many CMA style originators have/had no real idea of what it's like to have an agile 250-300lb. incredibly strong, trained fighter coming at them without restraint. Most CMA stuff will crumple like a sheet of house-brand aluminum foil.

Some of the most effective Western methods are aesthetically ugly, perhaps, in comparison with many CMA techniques, but have been battle-tested against large, powerful Europeans via the Greek and Roman imperial conquests. Greco-Roman methods and Pankration-style techniques still find themselves well-represented in modern MMA. Another cultural factor is that Westerners aren't afraid to get sweaty, bloody, filthy, roll-around-on-the-ground dirty on a regular basis. Such behavior is seen as unacceptably crude by traditional Chinese culture.

Perhaps the bottom line, though, is that the Western methods you see so much of today are simply an appealing combination of high-speed, low-drag simple, they work effectively and consistently against a wide variety of other approaches, they can be taught to a wide variety of people, and they have an extremely short learning curve relative to most CMA. That last factor is what allows people to quickly get to a point in their training where they are taking what already works and honing it, pressure testing it in full-contact, fully-resisting contexts, and making it more flexible in a wider variety of application scenarios while many CMA practitioners are still learning how to stand there or how to hold their pinky when practicing a solo form for the millionth time.

[Darthwing Teorist]

Greco-Roman and Pankration styles of today are only reconstitution, not necessarily coming from Greek and Roman conquests. They may have been tested, but in the ring only.

[Waterway]

There was a documentary about historical Chinese Sports on Discovery Channel prior to the 2008 olympics.

In it, the narrator said that sport in China was used to promote personal growth and connect the community.

The notion of "competition (i.e. competing against people to beat them)" was rarely heard of, according to the program.

I don't know how true this is. If you look back at China's Olympic record (as the program suggested) up until recent times it hasn't been that great for such a large nation. It was only when China started adopting more "Western" approaches to Olympic sports that they began to have success (or so the program suggested.)

If that is true, it may be that CMA weren't immediately compatible with western combat sports. In boxing for example, an (amateur) competitive boxer is training to win bouts. That's it. There isn't a specific ideal of improving the self or boxing to connect to the community.

The program made broad sweeping statements, but at least it offered a possible reason between the potential martial differences of East and West.

I don't know enough about the subject to say for sure. All I can do is speculate!

Another point I would make though regarding MMA: MMA is fast becoming trapped in its own dogma of what "works". A lot of MMA nowadays seems to be Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling and Boxing. That's it.

I am not saying these arts are ineffective. What I am saying is that a lot of people who learn MMA nowadays seem content with that, and the exploration of TMA (including CMA) isn't happening. I think this is a shame for MMA, as there likely many things in TMA that could be used in MMA, if adapted properly.

Human nature means that most people want it done for them though, so aside from a few notable exceptions, I can't see mainstream MMA radically changing from what it is now.

[Ray]

Andy,
Not to be trivialized is the inconvenient fact of Westerners' much larger stature and strength on average, especially among the warrior caste where martial approaches generally originate. Certain Western methods (not necessarily all) still work when applied against a 6' 4" 260lb. Norseman or Scotsman, where a whole lot of CMA's arsenal is left flapping in the breeze. Try any of the wushu-y nonsense that edededed referenced against a feisty cornfed northern German lad and all he's gonna do is smile at your pretty dancing. The tenet surrounding CMA that their material can work regardless of how big and strong an opponent is has been overly mythologized. Frankly, many CMA style originators have/had no real idea of what it's like to have an agile 250-300lb. incredibly strong, trained fighter coming at them without restraint. Most CMA stuff will crumple like a sheet of house-brand aluminum foil. ....
Perhaps the bottom line, though, is that the Western methods you see so much of today are simply an appealing combination of high-speed, low-drag simple, they work effectively and consistently against a wide variety of other approaches, they can be taught to a wide variety of people, and they have an extremely short learning curve relative to most CMA. That last factor is what allows people to quickly get to a point in their training where they are taking what already works and honing it, pressure testing it in full-contact, fully-resisting contexts, and making it more flexible in a wider variety of application scenarios while many CMA practitioners are still learning how to stand there or how to hold their pinky when practicing a solo form for the millionth time.

Since this is going off topic, Chris, your comments re northern Europeans is a gross generalization at best. What "warrior caste" are you referring to? Are you writing about Western methods that will allow a 6' 4" 260 lb. individual to apply them against another person of said size only? What about techniques against someone larger, like a hypothetical 6'6' 300 lb. Pacific Islander? What "high-speed, low-drag" techniques are you referring to? I'd agree that most western military unarmed methods are meant to be base-line short leaning curve techniques taught to grunts or LE. Their focus is and appropriately so on other tools: firearms, OC, baton, etc., not hand to hand. Correctional officers, on the other hand, may have a greater need for these skills.
BTW, have you seen how big those shui jiao and sumo guys are from northern China, Mongolia and what about the Korean and Chinese weight lifters at the recent Olympics?

[Chris McKinley]

Ray,

Yeah, I was feeling gross and general when I wrote it. There's a lot of bluster in that particular post, and it's intentional. This kind of thread, which has been retread a thousand times during the whole MMA vs. TMA wars of the 90's, has a tendency to want to find minutiae and nuance, rather than the often obvious. As a result, I decided to serve up living room elephant for lunch on this one.