Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:22 pm

It's also a good idea not to focus exclusively on the perceived problem area. The body is all connected-- treat it as such!
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby GrandUltimate on Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:02 pm

Hey everyone, so I've been going through this page recently and trying out different methods. I'm still not doing things as diligently as I'd like, but there is still some improvement that I'm hoping will increase with my work ethic on this matter.

Right now I've been doing the following daily:

-The Bend-over and Back Bend Stretches as shown in Jonathan Bluestein's posts (min 3 mins for the bend over and 1 min for the back bend)
-Hollows
-The trifecta from Convict Conditioning 2 (so far, L- sits on a chair, glute raise holds, and level 2 of the twisting holding)
-The Brettzel 1 and 2

So far, this has helped me in regards to the flexibility required for good posture (though I have a lot more to go). However, holding good posture still feels like an active task for me that drains energy. So I have better range when it comes to fixing the pelvic tilt, but not the strength to hold it there consistently. I figure this will come with time.

Either way, I figured I'd post a pic of what my back is like so far. This is my body when I'm not "holding" the correct pelvic tilt. Hopefully, in due time, I'll be able to post pics with a lot of improvement. Maybe I'll also take a picture sometime soon of my posture when I do put the effort into fixing my pelvic tilt.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:41 am

I remain in the benefit that zhanzhuang is still the better way to find out deficiencies in posture and proprioception per musculature orientation. As long as we identify the deficiencies per the Western scientific naming convention, we can solve many problems.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby daoboxer on Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:05 pm

Hi yeniseri,
While I agree that zhan zhuang is a powerful tool for balancing out posture, I would like to add an experience of mine, which came about directly as a result of this thread.
I'm sure we all have our postural anomalies, to one degree or another. I have had one that has been like a shard in my mind every time I practised zhan zhuang. I probably became internally aware enough to notice this imbalace in my hip/lumbar area about 5 years ago. Although the problem was generally slowly diminishing, on some days it would appear to be almost as bad as ever.
Anyway, I decided to try out the yoga postures Jonathan suggested to the o.p. earlier in this thread. When I tried the pigeon posture with my left leg tucked under, I immediately realised the root of my particular postural jeesh, as it was impossible to assume the posture. Having inched toward the correct pigeon posture over a few days, the resulting change in the feeling of my zhan zhuang was profound. Although the zhan zhuang was fixing me on its own, the pigeon posture has allowed the zhan zhuang to work much faster.
By the way, thanks for posting those Jonathan, I owe you one.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:36 pm

Last edited by wayne hansen on Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:05 pm

A good thing I just found on the spine

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsod ... t=20150608

Has anyone here ever thought why all medical books show the spine with a s curve
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:02 am

wayne hansen wrote:Has anyone here ever thought why all medical books show the spine with a s curve


I believe they look at the articular surfaces of skeletons and come up with an "average". So in the case of the spine specifically, each vertebra is some kind of wedge shape, and they look at how they could stack all of the vertebra so that each surface is flat to the surface next to it.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:17 am

GrandUltimate wrote:However, holding good posture still feels like an active task for me that drains energy. So I have better range when it comes to fixing the pelvic tilt, but not the strength to hold it there consistently.


I would recommend focusing on releasing tension and allowing the pelvis to "drop" into the desired alignment rather than adding tension to pull into alignment. Here's a proprioception exercise I used to do with people who were wound to tight around the core for their own good:

Sit up (relatively) straight on the edge of a flat, hard surface so you feel all your weight on your "sit bones" (the bottom of your ischium).
Put your hands on the bottom of your ribs to either side and lift very slightly. This is to give yourself a frame of reference and cue you to hold the ribs steady.
Keeping yourself stationary from your hands up, roll your pelvis back staying relaxed in the legs and hips.
Most people will feel a stretch in the back, and in particular along the spine, along with a hollowing of the belly and activation of the lower abs. Don't worry about the abs so much, just let them do what they do, what we're after is the sensation of lengthening through the back without shortening through the front.
Once you get the feeling down, try to do it without pulling the abs in, but instead with inhaling into the lower dantian and pelvic floor, or as Elliot Hulse says, "breathe into your balls".
Once you can do it in a relaxed manner while seated, learn to do it while standing (not Zhuan Zhang, just standing).
If you want to be all geeky about it, you can try to sink the pelvis and get that stretch from the sacrum to the base of the skull without any added tension.

This may or may not fit the requirements of your martial art or even "good movement", but it's a nice way to get to the idea of lengthening the back of the spine without shortening the front. It's a subtle difference between axial elongation and flexion (or extension if you're talking about the thoracic spine).
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Tom on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:13 pm

Bhassler wrote:
GrandUltimate wrote:However, holding good posture still feels like an active task for me that drains energy. So I have better range when it comes to fixing the pelvic tilt, but not the strength to hold it there consistently.


I would recommend focusing on releasing tension and allowing the pelvis to "drop" into the desired alignment rather than adding tension to pull into alignment. Here's a proprioception exercise I used to do with people who were wound to tight around the core for their own good:

Sit up (relatively) straight on the edge of a flat, hard surface so you feel all your weight on your "sit bones" (the bottom of your ischium).
Put your hands on the bottom of your ribs to either side and lift very slightly. This is to give yourself a frame of reference and cue you to hold the ribs steady.
Keeping yourself stationary from your hands up, roll your pelvis back staying relaxed in the legs and hips.
Most people will feel a stretch in the back, and in particular along the spine, along with a hollowing of the belly and activation of the lower abs. Don't worry about the abs so much, just let them do what they do, what we're after is the sensation of lengthening through the back without shortening through the front.
Once you get the feeling down, try to do it without pulling the abs in, but instead with inhaling into the lower dantian and pelvic floor, or as Elliot Hulse says, "breathe into your balls".
Once you can do it in a relaxed manner while seated, learn to do it while standing (not Zhuan Zhang, just standing).
If you want to be all geeky about it, you can try to sink the pelvis and get that stretch from the sacrum to the base of the skull without any added tension.

This may or may not fit the requirements of your martial art or even "good movement", but it's a nice way to get to the idea of lengthening the back of the spine without shortening the front. It's a subtle difference between axial elongation and flexion (or extension if you're talking about the thoracic spine).


Nice exercise, Brian! Thanks.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby bailewen on Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:40 pm

Ian wrote:
zenshiite wrote:Back Bridges and L-sits


The guy says he has anterior pelvic tilt / hyperlordosis, i.e. accentuated extenion of the lumbar spine... and your recommendation is more extension?

This is why I don't come to message boards for medical advice.

Not a doctor here either....

That being said, from the little bit of anatomy I have learned, the suggestion makes sense. Usually Frequently that tilt come not from tight erector spinae (they aren't really powerful muscles those) but rather from overly tight illio-psoas. (sp?). Back bridges can stretch out the illio-psoas, reducing that pelvic tilt.

It's one of the reasons you see a lot of muscled up gym rats with major low back issues. Too much "ab-work", especially old-fashioned sit-ups or leg lifts instead of crunches or other more pure abdominal exercises. The muscles that lift the legs tighten up and then when you are standing, so your legs are anchored and can't be lifted, the illio-psoas ends up just pulling your lumbar vertebrae downwards towards the legs, creating that anterior pelvic tilt.

So the recommendation is not about getting more extension to the lumbar area. It's about stretching out the muscles connecting the inner thigh to the lower back.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby bailewen on Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Tentative study looking into the issue back in the 60's (inconclusive)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 2-0044.pdf

Generally accepted basic concept among many chiropractors:
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.ca/mpacm ... p?id=43076
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.


There's plenty more stuff like that out there on the interwebs...
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:37 am

bailewen wrote:
Ian wrote:
zenshiite wrote:Back Bridges and L-sits


The guy says he has anterior pelvic tilt / hyperlordosis, i.e. accentuated extenion of the lumbar spine... and your recommendation is more extension?

This is why I don't come to message boards for medical advice.

Not a doctor here either....

That being said, from the little bit of anatomy I have learned, the suggestion makes sense. Usually Frequently that tilt come not from tight erector spinae (they aren't really powerful muscles those) but rather from overly tight illio-psoas. (sp?). Back bridges can stretch out the illio-psoas, reducing that pelvic tilt.

It's one of the reasons you see a lot of muscled up gym rats with major low back issues. Too much "ab-work", especially old-fashioned sit-ups or leg lifts instead of crunches or other more pure abdominal exercises. The muscles that lift the legs tighten up and then when you are standing, so your legs are anchored and can't be lifted, the illio-psoas ends up just pulling your lumbar vertebrae downwards towards the legs, creating that anterior pelvic tilt.

So the recommendation is not about getting more extension to the lumbar area. It's about stretching out the muscles connecting the inner thigh to the lower back.


agree

a good clip that I often share that helps to address stretching lower back as well as some other areas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhtH9_yrBiQ
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:21 am

Yup, that's a good observation. It's also fairly typical for hyperlordosis to be accompanied by a forward head position and extra curve of the upper spine, both of which could possibly be addressed by back bridging, although I would prefer to approach the bridge as more of a test or goal that forces one to address underlying issues rather than as a position one forces oneself into and holds hoping that the strain of it will automagically correct posture.

There's also the question of bang for your buck-- if all you need is to stretch the hip flexors there are simpler ways to go about it. Personally, I've never seen stretching do anyone much good, especially considering the time investment it takes to maintain it, but that again goes back to addressing organization of the whole system rather than isolated body parts (which could be another argument in favor of back bridges).

Good talk.
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