New article by Yang Hai: Hard force and soft force in Xingyi

[Pandrews1982]

In my xing yi the centre is in the solar plexus, everything comes form here. There is very little pushing or force coming from the ground, everything is mass and movement from the centre, this is the premise of our shen fa. You can hit hard and fast while moving and not pushing off the floor.

I all the tai chi I have done there is always a sinking into the ground and rooting or pushing from the leg connected with the floor and force either comes up or goes down from/into the ground. The dantien plays a big role in tai chi, I've never been taught to use the dantien in XY.

If I practice XY I do XY if I do Tai chi I try to do Tai chi though inevitably there is a XY influence and I have had this pointed out a number of times i.e. "the movements were correct but it was XY not tai chi".

I practice each separately looking at the separate shen fa and principles of each art as different ways of doing things. I don't try to combine them at all.

I think the idea of the three being linked somehow comes from the collaborative efforts of teachers such as sun lu tang, li cun yi, chen ting hua etc. in the early 1900s. Before then xing yi was completely separate to tai chi, it had a different context (battlefield art) and different usage why is it so understand that they have different shen fa and different principles then?

If you practice both then both have different understanding of internal so in studying both you gain a deeper and broader understanding but to try to treat them the same is in my opinion not the right way of going about things, its like using fork to eat soup, yeah you'll get a taste of the soup but you'll never get enough out of the bowl to satisfy you.

Finally, i don't think that doing a different art/system means you begin at zero even if the art is vastly different from your own. Each art has specific objectives and develops shen fa for this, but all arts have common principles such as angles of attack, these don't change so even as a beginner you will understand some idea of where you need to be to make something work even if what you are trying to do is alien. I do XY tai chi, Choy lee Fut mainly, all are very different but after a while you can pick things up very quickly because you can see the martial principles straight away, as a complete noob its just enough to memorise the forms and how to do the movements let along think about where to move, what target to pick, how to react etc. It gets easier, well at least is does for me.

[xingyijuan]

Mr Yang asked me to post this as an answer:

Hello Bao,
I am not sure your name is Chinese name or English, since we have the same sound "bao" in Chinese with good meaning.
I am curious also that is English your first language? Because i am confused: your writing is very good. But it seems that you like to make some new stuff by yourself. If you do not believe me, please read what you have written (there are a lot of same stuff but I only pick one as a sample):

"So back to my question: What I think is curious is that if the XingYi practice is very strict and focused, how can you at the same time teach another kind of shenfa for the same students? And if you can do that, why are you so strict with the XY shenfa?
If you can mix different body methods, it doesn't matter if you mix two different styles or does it in one style. Either you are very strict and teach one kind of shen fa and have your students to stick to that one. The other option is that you are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring."

"So back to my question: What I think is curious is that if the XingYi practice is very strict and focused, how can you at the same time teach another kind of shenfa for the same students?"

Answer: can you teach that? Maybe you can. Since you are asking this question so maybe you want to improve your skill of teaching. But i have to be direct to you that I cannot and I never did. I only teach students the second style after years of practicing the first style. Or, at least, that the person knows how to separate the different practices from different styles.

So have you heard anyone teach like you said which mix two together? Did i mention that in my article?

"And if you can do that, why are you so strict with the XY shenfa? "

Answer: I told you already that I can not. IF you can, could you PLEASE share some wisdom with us?
Shenfa? What is that? I do not know the meaning... or we have the different dictionary to the same words. Do you know what the Shenfa mean in Chinese? At least I can not guess the meaning from what you wrote...
This is a frequently used words in EF, still I do not know it.

"If you can mix different body methods, it doesn't matter if you mix two different styles or does it in one style. Either you are very strict and teach one kind of shen fa and have your students to stick to that one. The other option is that you are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring."

Answer: You make me more confused now, sorry for my poor English.

But maybe you are the ONLY martial art instructor who are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring. The reason? because it seems that you can mix up two styles together to your students. OR you do not know application, techniques or sparring at all, so you want to use Shenfa, the word you even do not know, to fool others. Sorry for my straightness, it is my personality that I can not tolerate your unreasonable hypothesis at all.

If you teach martial art as I do, I would like to say more to you: Do not get me wrong please Bao, I teach 3 styles and I mastered 3 styles. I do not want to be too humble to you now since you like to coach others a lot. And you like to make up some words and twisted it then ask people for Evil knows reason (not God knows reason here).

For your other writing on your posted message, there are many mistakes as well, I do not want to point them out here since it is not my business. Since you asked me some questions, i have to give a quick answer.

Please do not blame us that I asked my student to post this message for me.
By the way, your name in Chinese has many good meanings, such as Treasure, precious, protect and others...

Hai Yang

p.s.: May I ask a favor from you? I would like to take some of your question from your posts and give answers then show them to my students, to clarify some common misunderstanding or mistakes. Is it ok with you? If so, I will really appreciate it, because you know, sometimes, pointing out mistakes are more helpful to students than showing a good sample only.
I will wait for your answer.

Enjoy!

[Bao]

Mr Yang asked me to post this as an answer:

Hello Bao,
I am not sure your name is Chinese name or English, since we have the same sound "bao" in Chinese with good meaning.
I am curious also that is English your first language? Because i am confused: your writing is very good. But it seems that you like to make some new stuff by yourself. If you do not believe me, please read what you have written (there are a lot of same stuff but I only pick one as a sample):

"So back to my question: What I think is curious is that if the XingYi practice is very strict and focused, how can you at the same time teach another kind of shenfa for the same students? And if you can do that, why are you so strict with the XY shenfa?
If you can mix different body methods, it doesn't matter if you mix two different styles or does it in one style. Either you are very strict and teach one kind of shen fa and have your students to stick to that one. The other option is that you are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring."

"So back to my question: What I think is curious is that if the XingYi practice is very strict and focused, how can you at the same time teach another kind of shenfa for the same students?"

Answer: can you teach that? Maybe you can. Since you are asking this question so maybe you want to improve your skill of teaching. But i have to be direct to you that I cannot and I never did. I only teach students the second style after years of practicing the first style. Or, at least, that the person knows how to separate the different practices from different styles.

So have you heard anyone teach like you said which mix two together? Did i mention that in my article?

"And if you can do that, why are you so strict with the XY shenfa? "

Answer: I told you already that I can not. IF you can, could you PLEASE share some wisdom with us?
Shenfa? What is that? I do not know the meaning... or we have the different dictionary to the same words. Do you know what the Shenfa mean in Chinese? At least I can not guess the meaning from what you wrote...
This is a frequently used words in EF, still I do not know it.

"If you can mix different body methods, it doesn't matter if you mix two different styles or does it in one style. Either you are very strict and teach one kind of shen fa and have your students to stick to that one. The other option is that you are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring."

Answer: You make me more confused now, sorry for my poor English.

But maybe you are the ONLY martial art instructor who are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring. The reason? because it seems that you can mix up two styles together to your students. OR you do not know application, techniques or sparring at all, so you want to use Shenfa, the word you even do not know, to fool others. Sorry for my straightness, it is my personality that I can not tolerate your unreasonable hypothesis at all.

If you teach martial art as I do, I would like to say more to you: Do not get me wrong please Bao, I teach 3 styles and I mastered 3 styles. I do not want to be too humble to you now since you like to coach others a lot. And you like to make up some words and twisted it then ask people for Evil knows reason (not God knows reason here).

For your other writing on your posted message, there are many mistakes as well, I do not want to point them out here since it is not my business. Since you asked me some questions, i have to give a quick answer.

Please do not blame us that I asked my student to post this message for me.
By the way, your name in Chinese has many good meanings, such as Treasure, precious, protect and others...

Hai Yang

p.s.: May I ask a favor from you? I would like to take some of your question from your posts and give answers then show them to my students, to clarify some common misunderstanding or mistakes. Is it ok with you? If so, I will really appreciate it, because you know, sometimes, pointing out mistakes are more helpful to students than showing a good sample only.
I will wait for your answer.

Enjoy!

Thank you very much! To Mr Yang Hai, but also Xingyijuan.

Dear Mr Yang Hai,
my name is David. My English is not perfect and my Chinese is quite poor. I live in Sweden and the name "Bao" was given to me from my first teacher in Chinese. I guess he wanted to give me some good luck. Most of my friends just call me Bao, so I choose this name when I write on the internet. Here in sweden, there are not many I can speak about my interests in Chinese martial arts. There are not many I can communicate with in a meaningful manner, so I write here.

First, when I wrote "you", this was meant as a "common you", like "anyone" and it was not meant directly to Mr Yang Hai,

Shenfa = body method. Yes, this word is commonly used on this forum. Different styles use different body methods. I think you understood by my post what I meant.

can you teach that? Maybe you can. Since you are asking this question so maybe you want to improve your skill of teaching. But i have to be direct to you that I cannot and I never did. I only teach students the second style after years of practicing the first style. Or, at least, that the person knows how to separate the different practices from different styles.

Thank you for your answer, I understand more about your practice, and this was what I wanted to know. I was not sure about your teaching method.

techniques or sparring at all, so you want to use Shenfa, the word you even do not know, to fool others. Sorry for my straightness, it is my personality that I can not tolerate your unreasonable hypothesis at all.. . .
I do not want to be too humble to you now since you like to coach others a lot. And you like to make up some words and twisted it then ask people for Evil knows reason (not God knows reason here).

I have a lot of thoughts about these things, how to work with styles and how to teach them. I write in such a way that I will provoke some answers. Some time, my way of writing can be misunderstood. But I guess we must all be careful how we write. But often when I write it is because I have some questions and I do not know how to answer them by myself. I hope for some kind of response to become more clear. Then I can become a better teacher and a better practitioner.

What I wrote was general thoughts, not directed to your article. I used it as an example. I should have drawn the line clearer about what was my general thoughts and how it related to the article. I see now how it can be easily misunderstood. If I have offended you, Mr Yang Hai, you should know that this was never my intention. I enjoyed the article and used this thread to write about my thoughts. First I thought about open a new thread. That would have been wiser. But also, I knew that this thread would bring more attention to my questions then if I opened another thread.

For your other writing on your posted message, there are many mistakes as well, I do not want to point them out here since it is not my business. Since you asked me some questions, i have to give a quick answer.

I would be happy to recieve any advice and hear about anything you consider a mistake. I am happy every time someone points out my mistakes. Only if I know about my flaws or mistakes I can develop and become better.

May I ask a favor from you? I would like to take some of your question from your posts and give answers then show them to my students, to clarify some common misunderstanding or mistakes. Is it ok with you? If so, I will really appreciate it, because you know, sometimes, pointing out mistakes are more helpful to students than showing a good sample only. I will wait for your answer.

Do as you wish. I will be happy If I can be of any help for you.

I hope you understand me better now, and that my intention is all good. I wish good luck to you and all of your students.

[Josealb]

Pandrews, interesting you should explain that. Never seen or read of xingyi not getting its power from the ground, thru the dantien.

Maybe its a Choy Li Fut thing? Or maybe i just need to see more and read more.

[D_Glenn]

Yang,

Shenfa = 身法

.

[Pandrews1982]

Jose, sent you PM.

Not a choy lee fut thing at all, I was taught Xing Yi before I even knew what choy lee fut was I've brought up this issue of not needing the ground as a root before and not had a lot of response I've seen videos of guys (one Song Style I think is still up on you tube somewhere) doing this kind of movement but no one really emphasises it. Anyway I don't want to hijack the thread I'm sending a PM with some more info you might be interested in.

[mixjourneyman]

Bao, that was incredibly classy.

[kreese]

My taiji teacher also said that movement originates at the second dantian/solar plexus. After thinking about it and working with the idea, I concur.

[edededed]

It CAN - but it doesn't have to.

[David Boxen]

Maybe the question is where does intention originate from?

[Inner_man]

Maybe the question is where does intention originate from?

Between the ears

[GrahamB]

Heart/Mind dude!

[Inner_man]

I can see theres a great sense of humour here - well I tried at least

[jjy5016]

I liked the article.

Our teacher used to say that hsing yi quan trains from external to internal. First train the hsing, then the yi then throw them both away. So in essence he was in agreement with what master Yang Hai was writing about.

According to our line of hsingyi / yiquan (Zhang Chao Tong and Wang Hsiang Zhai) this is the way that was traditionally trained.

I never heard about Wang's comment about Hsiang Yun Hsian, the flower pot and rice bowl but I do know that they met once and challenged (tested) each other. It came to a draw, both of them not feeling very well afterwards or wanting to try it again.

I've practiced taiji and hsingyi / yiquan together for many years. Whereas some say that the two systems are at opposite ends of the "internal" spectrum I see one being just a bit different in using the different types of jing than the other.

small John

[GrahamB]

Hey John, good to have you back - where you been?