Who's added a grappling art to their neijia study?

[jwalker]

I have started BJJ but only because I was watching so much MMA I just could help myself any longer, it looked like too much fun. And it is. And cause I was bored. And cause it was close to my house.

I have not yet altered any techniques as I am still very much learning. I will say however that I plan on doing a lot more standing as I feel it will help me make the most of my weight (I'm outweighed significantly by the majority of my partners) and also the relaxation I have felt in some of the guys on the matt is the same sort of thing I have felt in people who have done a lot of standing. And it's beneficial, I can see why some might feel their push hands skills are of some use.

such a mature post must be comprimised, and thus: ARMBAR FROM THE GUAAARRRDD BITCHES!!!

kthx

[kreese]

You'd probably be better served by doing BJJ/grappling specific conditioning drills.

It's been a while since I've seen you on the board, jwalker. Good to see ya back. Refresh my memory - you were studying Chen taiji back in the day?

[Chris McKinley]

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread for their thoughtful contributions. Further, what I'd really like to thank you all for is the fact that this thread, to me, represents what a martial arts forum on the internet ought to be about: the respectful, informative exchange of both personal views and specific information in a civil but friendly manner.

Some of us have been around so long that everybody knows how we do things and that some of those things are different than what others might be doing. Rather than banging our heads in a Hundred Years Flame War over orthodoxy, it's nice to see that we can instead share information among those interested, and that those who are not simply and politely ignored the thread. Thanks again, guys.

[Dweezle]

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread for their thoughtful contributions. Further, what I'd really like to thank you all for is the fact that this thread, to me, represents what a martial arts forum on the internet ought to be about: the respectful, informative exchange of both personal views and specific information in a civil but friendly manner.

Some of us have been around so long that everybody knows how we do things and that some of those things are different than what others might be doing. Rather than banging our heads in a Hundred Years Flame War over orthodoxy, it's nice to see that we can instead share information among those interested, and that those who are not simply and politely ignored the thread. Thanks again, guys.

That being said I think grappling is for roid heads who cant do Tai Chi correctly or demonstrate the deadly empty force skills.
--Kidding

Great thread, enjoyed reading it, I have learned only a little bit of grappling, all of it useful, and eventually I would like to incorporate more.

Dweez

[bruce]

how many of you have augmented your neijia training with some form of grappling art for standing and/or ground grappling situations?

when i am practicing "rolling" with bjj guys i am doing my understanding of tai chi chuan push hands/sparring practices.
i try to play "my game" and use what makes sense based on the situation. one thing that is important for me regarding ground grappling is making sure you finish it quick and get back to your feet.

Among those who have, how many have altered their grappling art's techniques to reflect more neijia principles?

What changes have you made?

i do not think i have altered either of them so much as i have allowed myself to pay closer attention to the other persons distance and leverage also paying close attention to my sensitivity of the other person.

[nianfong]

werd, chris.

I've actually found that grappling added substantially to my sparring, because it has opened up my mind to so many other forms of "end game". I used to just be aiming for vital points, lining up a nice strike etc. now I see so many openings for throws that I have so many more options if I don't land my strike. basically my possible end games have increased substantially.

-Fong

[Jeice]

Yo, had a background in karate, aikijutsu, and taiji, made baby steps towards grappling in 2005, then dove in headfirst after my first tournament. Now a blue, aspiring to wherever the hell my noodly talents will get me. Do it primarily because its fun as hell, used to try and think of it in taiji terms, but since I was a beginner that meant being defensive and trying not to get subbed, it worked, but didn't get me anywhere (First tourney result 3rd, but could have been 1st if I'd had more than sub defense and a submission only guard game). So I put taiji in its box along with my other standing styles and played on the ground for real.

[CaliG]

I've done bjj on and off since 2000. When I felt comfortable on the ground I stopped.

But now I'm back at it. Not so much because I want to improve my self-defense but because judo/SC schools are too far from me so I choose a bjj school that does a lot of takedowns and now that I am doing it again just for the enjoyment (since I wanted to focus more on throws) and I like it a lot more.

If I tap out I don't care, I just like training. The funny thing is that I take it a lot more seriously now because I have a much better understanding of training from my Taiji teacher. I still do my neijia training but I also jump rope and lift kettlebells and this has definately improve my bjj game. I'm stronger and healthier than ever, I don't have a gut and don't rarely tire out when training.

As far as mixing it with neijia I don't really feel a need for that. I tried that years ago and it was hit or miss. But naturally I'm using my same body so yes I do have a different quality in my game. Yet this time I focus more on things like proper gripping, proper form, and proper weight distribution all things which are a part of neijia but I don't try to mix the two because I find the things that make martial arts work well are universal anyway. So yeah I do get stuff directly from my other training and use it in bjj but I don't try to make it happen it just comes out the more I train and the more I understand.

[iwalkthecircle]

i had to quite BJJ after about 3 month of it.
this big guy always wanted to wrestle me since i was hard to beat.
but he had very very BAD body odor.



i learn just enough to know what is going on.

[edededed]

I think that was part of his strategy to beat you...

[neijia_boxer]

I keep the BJJ very much separated from any Neijia training. I don't think like- ok i wanna practice a single palm changes- to a single leg, work to top position and finish off with a arm bar.- thats ok and can be done and practiced.- but I just dont.

It more like i just simply go to BJJ class once in a while and work on ground game. I keep arts separate.

[Chris McKinley]

neijia boxer,

RE: " I keep arts separate.". For purposes of initial learning and/or isolated practice of specific ideas, that is a good idea. However, for purposes of ultimately being able to use all of what you've trained to save your life some day, there is no alternative but that you have to integrate the training at some point. Remember, as I have pointed out many times on EF before, there is no such thing as a martial art. They are all abstract labels for specific sets of human physical behavior. All that you will ever learn in any martial arts class, no matter how many you study, is just different patterns of physical behavior and movement.

In a real self-defense situation, all the abstractions and labels evaporate. There is only the reality of physical behavior and movement. There are no convenient compartmentalizations available. It is well-documented that, under duress, if you do not freeze or flee, you will respond how you have trained to respond. If you have trained conflicting patterns of behavior for use under duress, you will typically fall back to the freeze response due to hesitation. Since the environmental stimuli that let you know when it's "time" to do neijia vs. when it's "time" to work your ground game can become hopelessly blurred in a real violent assault, it's quite possible that, unless you have trained to integrate both patterns into a larger single pattern, you will experience this internal conflict and hesitation if you are ever assaulted for real.

I'm not telling you what to do here....it's your training. I don't own it; you do. I'm just throwing out a different angle on it that you might not have considered. I just want to keep the good guys safe.

[Bhassler]

neijia boxer,

RE: " I keep arts separate.". For purposes of initial learning and/or isolated practice of specific ideas, that is a good idea. However, for purposes of ultimately being able to use all of what you've trained to save your life some day, there is no alternative but that you have to integrate the training at some point. Remember, as I have pointed out many times on EF before, there is no such thing as a martial art. They are all abstract labels for specific sets of human physical behavior. All that you will ever learn in any martial arts class, no matter how many you study, is just different patterns of physical behavior and movement.

In a real self-defense situation, all the abstractions and labels evaporate. There is only the reality of physical behavior and movement. There are no convenient compartmentalizations available. It is well-documented that, under duress, if you do not freeze or flee, you will respond how you have trained to respond. If you have trained conflicting patterns of behavior for use under duress, you will typically fall back to the freeze response due to hesitation. Since the environmental stimuli that let you know when it's "time" to do neijia vs. when it's "time" to work your ground game can become hopelessly blurred in a real violent assault, it's quite possible that, unless you have trained to integrate both patterns into a larger single pattern, you will experience this internal conflict and hesitation if you are ever assaulted for real.

I'm not telling you what to do here....it's your training. I don't own it; you do. I'm just throwing out a different angle on it that you might not have considered. I just want to keep the good guys safe.

What about training more or less pure movement abstractions-- meaning you develop dozens if not hundreds of potential movement patterns without thought to application. Similarly (though separately), one could train isolated skills useful for combat (power generation, or impact absorption, or listening skills, etc.), again without thought for applied function other than developing the skill itself. Since any sort of fight training is of necessity at best an approximation of a life or death encounter, could this be a viable route to useable skill when combined with appropriate mental training? If not sufficient in and of itself, could it work as the majority/basis of one's training and then supplement with whatever form of stress testing/sparring/competing one came up with?

[kreese]

I met a friend's aunt who was a real fireball. She would not hesitate to playfully hit and kick her nieces and nephews who are in their 20s and 30s. She was very fit, and liked to hike and walk and do real basic sorts of homebrewed Chinese-styled qigong exercises (e.g. swinging her arms around, stretching, and doing self-massage/pai da). She even busted out a cartwheel. She must be in her late 40s or even early 50s. She scared the hell out of everyone in a fun way. In a way her natural fighting style was effective and integrated. I'm not saying she could brawl, but she did not hesitate when she wanted to express herself. I try to keep this in mind even when I am learning strange forms and methods of gong fu - it's no more complicated than smacking people, locking them, throwing them down, etc. If I can't use a new movement in some basic way after practicing it for 30 minutes, I am losing the plot.

[Chris McKinley]

Bhassler,

RE: "What about training more or less pure movement abstractions-- meaning you develop dozens if not hundreds of potential movement patterns without thought to application.". I'll warn you that your question here is one of the more "can-o'-worms" issues on this whole forum. Unless you contextualize those behavioral patterns, they are very likely not to be accessible under duress, such as a real violent assault. The only notable exception is if a given behavior is under sufficient stimulus control such that, if you happen to both receive and recognize the stimulus for that behavior while under duress, there is still a decent chance that you may manifest that behavior....perhaps in such a way that it is sufficient to save you. Otherwise, all those years of so-called 'martial arts' training may very well leave you high and dry when the time comes.

This reality is in some degree of contrast to the traditional culture of many forms of martial arts. The usual defense given is something along the lines of, "that's the way we've always done it, so it must be right". Such logic, of course, not only is a genetic fallacy and an appeal to misleading authority, it completely ignores the fact that most practitioners of any given martial art have never seriously tested their training approach in serious combat, nevermind objectively compared it to other approaches under the same conditions. Much of what is contained within many if not most martial arts is purely subjective in nature.

RE: "Similarly (though separately), one could train isolated skills useful for combat (power generation, or impact absorption, or listening skills, etc.), again without thought for applied function other than developing the skill itself. Since any sort of fight training is of necessity at best an approximation of a life or death encounter, could this be a viable route to useable skill when combined with appropriate mental training?". Because these are still behaviors, they are subject to the response I gave above, meaning they still need to be contextualized. However, because these behaviors are far more generalized than specific techniques, etc. might be, their stimuli are not as specific, and are therefore far more likely to occur. Further, they can also be self-generative and therefore not necessarily stimulus-dependent at all. Put simply, this is a much improved step in the right direction.

Generalized patterns of movement, as opposed to narrowly-contextualized specific techniques, tend to fare better in situations where neither set of behavior has been appropriately contextualized. Choosing a handful of somewhat generalized, versatile and adaptable responses and contextualizing them thoroughly is perhaps the optimal combination.