A word about speed

[Strange]

Hi Overlord, actually i was trying to help ppl clear some BJJUFCMuscleInSpandex ear wax.
i am very deeply concerned about fellow board members hearing

[johnwang]

卫生, or pro-life ...

To mix "combat" and "health" in one discussion is not proper. One thing for sure is, when your fist meets on your opponent's face, it will be neither healthy for your fist nor healthy for his face.



Someone said that in the XingYi system, the training for "health" is different from the training for "combat". If you can't even train XingYi in full speed, how will you be able to train long fist that require many different "jumping kicks"?



- To do a jump kick will take 3 times more energy than to do a non-jump kick.
- To do a non-jump kick will take 3 times more energy than to do a punch.

I can drill my XingYi Bong Chuan for 2 miles non-stop, I can't even drill my non-jump kick for 1/2 mile. To get the same health benefit, the kick will be better than the punch. IMO, if you (general YOU) are not capable to do punches in full speed, your physical condition is pretty bad.

[johnwang]

I have had none of the above experiences for several decades time, ...

At our age, we try to stay away from people who like to use words such as

- death,
- old,
- sick,
- weak,
- cold,
- soft,
- ...

We like to stay close to people who like to use words such as

- alive,
- young,
- healthy,
- strong,
- hot,
- hard,
- ...

To inhale "positive" energy and exhale "positive" is the right attitude for life.

[Wanderingdragon]

WD, i think you forgot to say that the books i read are a couple of thousand years old and dug from some god-forsaken cave
and the words could have been form from bat droppings for what anyone knows

What is more impressive to me is if , through you training you have maintained a daily journal, having never seen these thousand year words and hearing them for the first time, you can relate back to your journal and find the same thoughts and epiphanies and clarifies. It is a time that you know you are clearly on the right path, clearly you have recieved honest instruction . If you have only read the words without having had some of the same experiences how will you know.

[kenneth fish]

Below are several phrases describing the quality of speed one should train for in Chinese martial arts in general, and Xingyi in particular (the quotes are from the 拳經 or Boxing Classic, and are found in several of the Xingyi and xinyi classics as well)

遇敵好似火燒身 "when encountering an enemy (one should) move as if one's body is on fire"
打倒還嫌遲， 打死還嫌慢 “Even though you have knocked the enemy down or killed him, you feel as if you moved too slowly and reacted to late."
起如蜇龍升天，落如霹靂擊地 ”rise as quickly as a dragon roused from hibernation ascending to the heavens, fall like thunder and lightening striking the ground"

All of these are similes intended to provide a feeling for the kind of speed and power one should strive for. All of the systems that I have trained in have a wealth of training drills and devices to develop and increase speed and power. Xingyi is no exception. My Bagua teacher used to tell us that we should move as if having touched a hot stove. My Tongbei teacher stressed that our hands should move so quickly that the opponent should only see them on the return from the strike.

IMO if you always train slow or at moderate speed and do not push yourself to move as quickly as possible (legs and body, not just hands) then you are training yourself to be slow and your training will not be practical for use as self defense.

[kenneth fish]

During the 1990's one of my students, Dave Houser, competed in one of the first ICKF tournaments. He performed the Xingyi 5 element linking form in the intermediate forms category. Dave could kick as fast as most people punch. The judges had to ask him to repeat the form and slow down, as they had trouble discerning his movements the first time through. He took first place in his forms division.

[I am...]

Below are several phrases describing the quality of speed one should train for in Chinese martial arts in general, and Xingyi in particular (the quotes are from the 拳經 or Boxing Classic, and are found in several of the Xingyi and xinyi classics as well)

遇敵好似火燒身 "when encountering an enemy (one should) move as if one's body is on fire"
打倒還嫌遲， 打死還嫌慢 “Even though you have knocked the enemy down or killed him, you feel as if you moved too slowly and reacted to late."
起如蜇龍升天，落如霹靂擊地 ”rise as quickly as a dragon roused from hibernation ascending to the heavens, fall like thunder and lightening striking the ground"

All of these are similes intended to provide a feeling for the kind of speed and power one should strive for. All of the systems that I have trained in have a wealth of training drills and devices to develop and increase speed and power. Xingyi is no exception. My Bagua teacher used to tell us that we should move as if having touched a hot stove. My Tongbei teacher stressed that our hands should move so quickly that the opponent should only see them on the return from the strike.

IMO if you always train slow or at moderate speed and do not push yourself to move as quickly as possible (legs and body, not just hands) then you are training yourself to be slow and your training will not be practical for use as self defense.

+1

[Bao]

but for training, and xingyi training, it should be done in an unhurried and deliberate
...
natural, unhurried and deliberate speed goes to the practitioner's deep mind FASTER.
....
for less experienced player, there is a high chance they will use strength to force speed
...

Agreed that XY should not be done in a hurried way.
But unhurried does not need to mean slow. Fast does not mean hurried.

IME, when you breath, relax, move in a natural manner and have a calm mind, you can move faster and keep up speed in a longer time than if you "use strength to force speed". This is IMHO quite obvious if you look at an art as XYLH.

Below are several phrases describing the quality of speed one should train for in Chinese martial arts in general, and Xingyi in particular (the quotes are from the 拳經 or Boxing Classic, and are found in several of the Xingyi and xinyi classics as well)

遇敵好似火燒身 "when encountering an enemy (one should) move as if one's body is on fire"
打倒還嫌遲， 打死還嫌慢 “Even though you have knocked the enemy down or killed him, you feel as if you moved too slowly and reacted to late."
起如蜇龍升天，落如霹靂擊地 ”rise as quickly as a dragon roused from hibernation ascending to the heavens, fall like thunder and lightening striking the ground"

All of these are similes intended to provide a feeling for the kind of speed and power one should strive for.

If you also can get a practitioner to not tense up, relax the chest, stay balanced and keep the mind empty, this kind of speed is a wonderful thing. Not everyone gets if right.

All of the systems that I have trained in have a wealth of training drills and devices to develop and increase speed and power. Xingyi is no exception. My Bagua teacher used to tell us that we should move as if having touched a hot stove. My Tongbei teacher stressed that our hands should move so quickly that the opponent should only see them on the return from the strike.

In tai chi I've heard things like fajin is to accelerate from 0 to 100 in 1/100 of a second. It's described like that the hand is on one place and then just on another place. It's very sudden, and it's more like cutting away the distance and the time that it takes for the fist to travel between the two points. Or "huh, did I hit you"? like William Chen likes to joke about it. This kind of "thinking" works better for me in XY as well. Speed becomes more of a technical thing and leaves out the feeling that you need to be hurried or in a mental stress. To add some humor into it and not take it all too seriously helps the mental process to "get it" a lot as well.

[KEND]

I think the main benefit in working at speed is the maintaining of body structure so strikes come from a stable position rather than an unbalanced one. This is brought about by basic training in alignment and connection. In fighting there are both fast and slow movements, creating a more unpredictable attack.
The punching speed is another issue. WC practitioners were timed at 25 mph or about 36 ft/sec. Assuming this is the final speed it gives an average of 18 ft/sec Across a gap of say 2 ft this is about 1/9 secs. Speed is obtained mostly by 'whipping' transferring slow moving body momentum into fast moving hand momentum. In combat there is also a reaction time aspect

[johnwang]

1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament - Ma Chengzhi (XingYi) vs. Han Qingtang (long fist)

After the match, Han praised Ma’s movement, saying “He’s like a shadow, constantly changing his angles of approach, I couldn’t even see him, never mind hit him.”

IMO, if Han couldn't even see Ma's attack, Ma was moving very "fast".
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As the tournament progressed, the bouts became more and more exciting, with the crowds numbering in the tens of thousands. No longer did we see protracted battles of attrition: some of the matches were over within a couple of exchanges of blows. In the final stages of the tournament, the match between Ma Chengzhi and Han Qingtang [6] was a standout. Ma and Han met in the 6th round of the tournament, by which point there were only 10 competitors left. Han Qingtang was one of the representatives of Northern Shaolin of the era. He was particularly skilled at Praying Mantis and Taizu Long Fist.

At the beginning of the bout, Ma advanced on Han, with Han adopting a ‘wait-and-see’ approach. When they were about 3 or 4 feet apart, Han, thinking that Ma would keep advancing, launched his attack, only to find that Ma had already switched legs and use xingyi’s horse shape to ‘counter-attack. Thus, Han found that he had not made any substantial contact but instead moved right into Ma’s strike. Han was knocked back several steps, but did not go down. Having recovered his balance, Han once again adopted a ‘wait-and-see’ approach, whilst Ma slowly approached. Han then retreated, thinking to lure Ma into attacking. As soon as Ma followed, Han launched kick & punch combos. Ma didn’t retreat or block, but rather ducked into xingyi’s bear shape, advanced, evaded Han’s attack and punched Han in the jaw. Han instantly went down. After the match, Han praised Ma’s movement, saying “He’s like a shadow, constantly changing his angles of approach, I couldn’t even see him, never mind hit him.”

[D_Glenn]

I can drill my XingYi Bong Chuan for 2 miles non-stop, I can't even drill my non-jump kick for 1/2 mile. To get the same health benefit, the kick will be better than the punch. IMO, if you (general YOU) are not capable to do punches in full speed, your physical condition is pretty bad.

So do you have your heavy bag on a set of wheels and you move it forward by punching and kicking it?

That must be a nifty contraption. Is it hanging from a chassis with 3 wheels or 4 wheels?

I'd imagine that it would be something you'd have to sort of steer in front of you with the strikes and going up and down hills with it could be a problem? Brake cable that you hold in your hand.

.

[Doc Stier]

hey Doc, i heard ppl who hang weights by their balls are immune to all forms of injury, except when being shot by a .5 calibre round
sounds like someone you know?

I never said that I am immune to injury. I have suffered through many fractures, bruises, burns, cuts, cases of food poisoning, etc, over the past 50 years time, but have NOT had any internally caused sickness or illness, never consulted a physician for any reason, never spent a day in the hospital, never had any surgery, never used pharmaceutical drugs, never missed work due to illness, and so forth. What kind of results are you getting from your training and health regimen?

[johnwang]

So do you have your heavy bag on a set of wheels and you move it forward by punching and kicking it?

After I have finished my 3 miles running on the Pismo Beach, on the way back, I like to do some left and right "sole" drills. I had tried to do just left and right front kick. No matter how relax that I was, after 1/2 miles of kicking, I was quite tired. If I just did left and right punch, I could do a long distance. But by punching only, it just doesn't give me the 'flexibility" that I try to give to my body the "daily maintenance".

[D_Glenn]

So do you have your heavy bag on a set of wheels and you move it forward by punching and kicking it?

After I have finished my 3 miles running on the Pismo Beach, on the way back, I like to do some left and right "sole" drills. I had tried to do just left and right front kick. No matter how relax that I was, after 1/2 miles of kicking, I was quite tired. If I just did left and right punch, I could do a long distance. But by punching only, it just doesn't give me the 'flexibility" that I try to give to my body the "daily maintenance".

Okay that makes it even crazier. How the heck do you get your heavy bag or "striking dummy" out on the Pismo Beach dock?!?

If you don't have some sort of wheeled contraption to make it mobile, do you carry it over your shoulder when you are running out there and then use one arm to hold it out in front of you and kick it and punch it with the other arm?

That is one heck of a work-out, Geezus, no wonder you can only do 1/2 mile kicking and a 2 mile Beng Chuan. How much does your heavy bag weigh? Your shoulders must be massive.

Today, I only punch on my heavy bag (or my striking dummy) and I no longer punch into the thin air. Without the physical contact, I can't get the satisfaction that I'm looking for.

If you can

- punch on your heavy bag, why do you want to punch into the thin air?
- throw your throwing dummy, why do you want to throw an imaginary opponent?
- make love to your love one, why do you want to play with yourself?

.

[johnwang]

As I have said:

Today, I only punch on my heavy bag (or my striking dummy) and I no longer punch into the thin air.

I just use 2 mile Beng Chuan to indicate that by using punch only, even if I do it in fast speed, it will take a lot time to get the right amount exercise for "health". I could drill my Beng Chuan for 2 miles on the beach but I don't do it any more. I prefer to do my "downward parry and comb hair, upward wrap and head lock" drill along with the footwork for 2 miles instead.

I used to do my kicking and punching solo drills along with my throwing drills. I have eliminated the kicking and punching drill and combined it with my heavy bag and striking dummy drills instead. The counter force that come back from my heavy bag and striking dummy just make me feel good.