A word about speed

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A word about speed

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:49 pm

kenneth fish wrote:One of my favorite maxims from the Xingyi classics: "move as if your clothing is on fire". If you want to be able to use your Xingyi (as opposed to just practice it as an exercise for health) then that sort of speed (and power) should be your goal.


Ain't that the truth! And anyone who can't move that way will surely be unable to use the art effectively even for simple self-defense, and will most certainly never be capable of replicating the superb fighting skills of the famed masters in previous generations! :/
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Bhassler on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:21 pm

What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
--Moshe Feldenkrais
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:30 pm



Always a pleasure to see Sifu Choi perform. 8-)

On a side note to this video, I can be seen standing against the back wall in a black demo uniform awaiting my turn to perform, while holding my baby girl who is now 24 years old and the mother of my only grandchild. Time passes so quickly. :)
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:28 pm

The point . is absolute
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Overlord on Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:14 am

kenneth fish wrote:One of my favorite maxims from the Xingyi classics: "move as if your clothing is on fire". If you want to be able to use your Xingyi (as opposed to just practice it as an exercise for health) then that sort of speed (and power) should be your goal.


People often confused result to effort, thinking the result is the result of result.
:)
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Re: A word about speed

Postby dspyrido on Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:44 am

johnwang wrote:Like this kind of speed.




So do I.

Is this bagua? There is a xinyi snake form done almost exactly the same way.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:04 am

Overlord wrote:
kenneth fish wrote:One of my favorite maxims from the Xingyi classics: "move as if your clothing is on fire". If you want to be able to use your Xingyi (as opposed to just practice it as an exercise for health) then that sort of speed (and power) should be your goal.


People often confused result to effort, thinking the result is the result of result.
:)


True...

... I like the quote, but you also need to point out that it's about the physical movements and that the mind is taken out of context. It can sound stressed. Western people often associate this kind of maxims with an emotional quality or mental effort. If a practitioner is used to feel strength and likes to make physical effort, this kind of quote won't help them to develop the right XY mind set.
... Just my 0,02 cents... :-\
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:08 am

let me pick up where i left off:
卫生, or pro-life, took me long while to understand cos its from Yi Quan.
meaning what you practice have to healthy, have to make you healthy and thus increase in strength.
it sounds very simple and obvious...needless to say.

let me put it in another way.
anyone of you got an injury/pain/slight deformity/weakness/loss of strength/discomfort that comes and goes, etc due to
your training? anyone who takes training seriously and tell me he/she has none is lying.

so, 5 element fist plus twelve animals equals a possible of 17 points of injury due to training.
the simple fact is: if your training is not "pro-life" it is not sustainable.
still do not believe me?
you just try injuring your pinky and see if you can hold a fist.
Last edited by Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:23 am

i may be wrong but i think you actually meant that Fa Li should not be done slow/half/speed in your original post
this of course is definitely no.

but for training, and xingyi training, it should be done in an unhurried and deliberate manner.

natural, unhurried and deliberate speed goes to the practitioner's deep mind FASTER.
we are doing internal arts using intent and not strength.
for less experienced player, there is a high chance they will use strength to force speed
this is stepping away from Dao and is not correct.

Please note 道法自然, or the Dao governs the natural.
if it is not natural, if you have had to force it, what real internal skill do you think you have?
不期自然至, or one shall not anticipate/be expectant/force outcome, but reach destination naturally
this is another saying/criteria from Yi Quan.

This is the correct way of the internal arts.
Last edited by Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Overlord on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:32 am

Strange wrote:i may be wrong but i think you actually meant that Fa Li should not be done slow/half/speed in your original post
this of course is definitely no.

but for training, and xingyi training, it should be done in an unhurried and deliberate manner.

natural, unhurried and deliberate speed goes to the practitioner's deep mind FASTER.
we are doing internal arts using intent and not strength.
for less experienced player, there is a high chance they will use strength to force speed
this is stepping away from Dao and is not correct.

Please note 道法自然, or the Dao governs the natural.
if it is not natural, if you have had to force it, what real internal skill do you think you have?
不期自然至, or one shall not anticipate/be expectant/force outcome, but reach destination naturally
this is another saying/criteria from Yi Quan.

This is the correct way of the internal arts.


Man, Strange, you are just too kind! Why you tell them all these secrets!
Should let them keep on practice with full speed, is good for them!
Sigh....
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:56 am

Books and words are Great for those who read, you are able to say things. Such people can easily be led by those unproven in their deed. Doing is knowing.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:00 am

i may be wrong but i think you actually meant that Fa Li should not be done slow/half/speed in your original post
this of course is definitely no.

To Fa Li the Bolang Jin movement of Tailbone Dantian and Spine must be learned, but they can't be learned unless done at full speed, once learned you can do the movement slow.
It's kind of like skateboarding where you learn to jump (called an ollie) with speed. You don't have to be moving, you can learn it while staying in one place but everything (both legs waist upper body arms) all have to learn to move in harmony in one quick motion, or else it won't work. Same with Bolang Jin/ Zhedie.

But note that it's your own full speed, which is likely to be relatively slow when compared to other experienced people, but faster and faster Fa Li and striking comes with repetitive practice, so don't seek speed, seek accuracy and efficiency of movement.

Speed is also increased in Isometric Standing practice where one is lengthening the muscles and tendons that are holding the speed back within the practitioners own body.

.
One part moves, every part moves; One part stops, every part stops.

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Re: A word about speed

Postby Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:08 am

WD, i think you forgot to say that the books i read are a couple of thousand years old and dug from some god-forsaken cave
and the words could have been form from bat droppings for what anyone knows

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Re: A word about speed

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:51 am

Strange wrote:
let me put it in another way.
anyone of you got an injury/pain/slight deformity/weakness/loss of strength/discomfort that comes and goes, etc due to
your training? anyone who takes training seriously and tell me he/she has none is lying.


With all due respect for your opinion, I have had none of the above experiences for several decades time, and I don't appreciate being called a liar in stating that fact! :/
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Strange on Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:10 am

hey Doc, i heard ppl who hang weights by their balls are immune to all forms of injury, except when being shot by a .5 calibre round
sounds like someone you know?
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