A word about speed

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A word about speed

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:46 pm

IMO here we see not a lot of speed but a lot of energy 8-)[/quote]
Back to the "speed" subject", multiple fast punches that exist in the praying mantis system may have power in the 1st punch (because you can put your body behind it). It may not have enough power in the 2nd, or the 3rd punch (because you don't have time to use the whole body). This is why the praying mantis techniques are good to be used for "set up".[/quote]

If this is your understanding, then clearly you have never gotten past your hands.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby mrtoes on Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:46 pm

My hsing i teacher was a mantis master and I'm pretty comfortable saying that he had both speed, connection and power in the 2nd, 3rd and subsequent strikes :)

I'm sure you're right that a lot of people have hand speed without it being really connected to the body though.

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Re: A word about speed

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:39 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:If this is your understanding, then clearly you have never gotten past your hands.

mrtoes wrote:have hand speed without it being really connected to the body though.

When you throw 3 fast punches without stepping forward, besides the 1st punch that you can put your body behind it, the best that you can do for the 2nd and the 3rd punch are just to twist your body from one extreme to the other extreme. You don't have this issue if you just do "1 step 1 punch". I assume "speed" not only means "how fast you can throw 1 punch", it also means "how fast you can throw multiple punches".

As Ken has mentioned, the fastest punch can be just 1/10 second. If you throw "1 step 3 punches" that will take 3/10 seconds. Will your body be able to move from one extreme to another extreme within 1/10 second and repeat that 3 times? I don't believe anybody can it. I haven't seen it happened in my life time yet.

Here are 5 short "1 step 3 punches" clips. Can you show some clips that have better "connected to the body" on the 2nd and the 3rd punch.

1. fast speed.







2. medium speed.



3. regular speed (I won't even call this "combat" speed).

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:10 pm

You always make it clear to me john, the you are an external artist, there can be no argument here, I know you are wrong and you know you are right. Agreeing to disagree.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Overlord on Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:06 am

Hi Kenneth,

Just to clarify....
I would want to know, if GM Zhang taught you like this, that is push you to train in Xingyi in your fastest pace?
And if you dont mind, when did you start training with him?
Much thanks.

Over

John,
If your form speed is way too fast as compared to your mind speed, your elbow will not be happy.
Cheers,

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Re: A word about speed

Postby KEND on Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:20 am

I think we must first consider why we would need 3 fast punches. In an external context if you are striking the body and can land 3 punches within a second you are more likely to strike at a time the heart is vulnerable, power is not so much a consideration [people have died after being hit by a tennis ball]
I consider Hsing yi a 'war' art, the object is to kill or maim the opponent, as such transmitting a shock wave to the heart does not take three punches, one or possibly two punches should be sufficient. If you are using a fast shot say to the throat to take someone out, again three strikes is not necessary.
I noticed he three punch is often used in WuShu, again to impress since the strikes always looked weak and overextended.
Again the benefits of fast training are considerable in terms of balance, stepping, etc, lets not get sidetracked into the 'fast punching' phenomena
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Re: A word about speed

Postby RobP2 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:10 am

Heresy I know but you don't need "full body connection" for a good punch. Placement, angle, timing and selective tension will do the job
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Re: A word about speed

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:12 am

Overlord:

Yes, Master Zhang taught speed drills for both Bagua and XIngyi (as I mentioned above, he said the single palm change movement should be "as if touching a hot stove"). I started training with Master Zhang in the early 1970's, a couple of years before he passed away (I was back in the States for a few months when he passed away, so I was not there at the end nor was I able to make it back for the funeral). I continued to learn from his wife, Hsu Baomei, from late 1975 onward (it may have been early 1976, but I recall it was before the Chinese New Year). I last trained with her in 1983.

As far as performing the forms (which I am guessing is what you are asking) - the five element linked form (solo and paired) and other paired work were to be done at full throttle once one was ready. San Shoupao (a two person moving step speed drill that is seen in both Xingyi and Tongbei) was an important exercise done as fast as you could possibly move.

I see that you do Ma Xianda's Tongbei - I would imagine that there are similar drills in his curriculum.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Bhassler on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:46 am

RobP2 wrote:Heresy I know but you don't need "full body connection" for a good punch. Placement, angle, timing and selective tension will do the job


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Re: A word about speed

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:21 am

KEND wrote:I think we must first consider why we would need 3 fast punches.
....
I noticed he three punch is often used in WuShu, again to impress since the strikes always looked weak and overextended.
Again the benefits of fast training are considerable in terms of balance, stepping, etc, lets not get sidetracked into the 'fast punching' phenomena


Good points. I like to think more in terms of rythm than speed. Fast, fast, heavy or heavy, fast, heavy, or heavy, fast, fast. If we put in rythm, it will be more easy for having a good footwork and for the body to change. An unpredictable rythm is good for attacks and set up.

What do we want to accomplish? Set up? Sometimes it's good if the first punch can be rather slow. Then you know he will reach for it or block it. Then you can change to qinna or strike fast into an opening or wherever he does not guard his doors.

When we move with speed, I believe in rythm. IMHO, rythm should come first, speed second. Then speed will come more naturally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pwzR2t1f30

Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:55 am

KEND wrote:why we would need 3 fast punches?

In striking skill, there are:

1. 1 step 3 punches,
2. 1 step 1 punch,
3. 3 step 1 punch (running punch).

The "1 step 3 punches" is just 1 of many striking skill training methods.

The "1 step 3 punches" exists in a lot of CMA systems such as long fist, praying mantis, Cho Jiao, eagle claw, ... It doesn't exist in Taiji, XingYi, Bagug (at least I haven't seen it).

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form and a pole form. One day I got into fight and I didn't know how to use the information out of the form he taught me. My brother in law then stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. Since then the "1 step 3 punches" become an important part of my daily training. During my college year, I learned a long fist 2 men form that has jab, cross, hook, hook combo. I then start to modify my "1 step 3 punches" into "1 step 4 punches" and those 4 punches are no longer linear as:

- jab, cross, hook, hook,
- jab, cross, hook, cross,
- jab cross, hook, uppercut,
- jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut,
- ...

My striking skill training started to evolve from a pure long fist system and look more like boxing. Since my 3rd, 4th punch are no longer linear, I can put more body rotation into it.

Here is a boxing drill of "1 step 4 punches" that is very similar to what I had learned in my long fist system.



mrtoes wrote:have hand speed without it being really connected to the body though.

This issue can be solved by changing the linear punch (such as jab, cross) into circular punches (such as hook, uppercut). This way, the body rotation can be added into the punch. Again, the 3 straight punches is only the starting point. It can lead you into many other trainings.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:06 pm

You see that's boxing, today I can't throw a western jab or cross to save my life , my body is for ever fused with my hand, I step I strike, I strike I transfer all my weight step or no step 3 strikes or 20, one strike carries the same force as all 1 is 20 you won't know the difference whether it's the fifth strike or 15th each will be as hard.
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Re: A word about speed

Postby BruceP on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:24 pm

D_Glenn wrote:If someone is capable or has taken the proper time to learn how to use the Zhedie and Zhuanhuan movements to power all strikes then striking into the air is and never will be a problem.

The whole body becomes like fine machined gears that interlock so precisely that there is no gaps between the teeth. One gear moves, all gears move. One gear stops, all gears stop. Movement without momentum.

You guys have totally missed the boat. I almost feel sorry for you guys.

.


Gears need 'gaps' aka, backlash, to work properly. Otherwise, they jam and something usually breaks. I know this from years of modifying the drives in power saws. Some ball screw gears operate on the notion of zero backlash, but their systems are 'preloaded' - which stretches your analogy beyond its meaningfulness.

Even the Issus's gears have gaps. Humans don't have gears so we, as a species, will never have the precision of the lowly leafhopper. Humans will always be momentum driven - some less so than others, but our physical makeup consigns us to the mercy of pesky yaw, and the varying degrees of asymmetry that each individual deals with as a flawed being.

The trick is to bounce/recoil the structure before full extension has occurred. Besides, 'power' is a relationship and is always subjective when it's being measured as a transference from one person to another.

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Re: A word about speed

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:23 pm

Shooter wrote:Gears need 'gaps' aka, ...

You throw some punches in full power. You throw some punches in partial power. Why do you want to do that for? You may just want to grab on your opponent's wrist and set up for your next move. MA is not always "fist meets face". Sometime when extreme speed is needed, power may not be that important.

In the following clip, both guys moves their hands very fast. Their goal is to grab on their opponent so they can apply throw.

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Re: A word about speed

Postby Overlord on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:42 pm

kenneth fish wrote:Overlord:

Yes, Master Zhang taught speed drills for both Bagua and XIngyi (as I mentioned above, he said the single palm change movement should be "as if touching a hot stove"). I started training with Master Zhang in the early 1970's, a couple of years before he passed away (I was back in the States for a few months when he passed away, so I was not there at the end nor was I able to make it back for the funeral). I continued to learn from his wife, Hsu Baomei, from late 1975 onward (it may have been early 1976, but I recall it was before the Chinese New Year). I last trained with her in 1983.

As far as performing the forms (which I am guessing is what you are asking) - the five element linked form (solo and paired) and other paired work were to be done at full throttle once one was ready. San Shoupao (a two person moving step speed drill that is seen in both Xingyi and Tongbei) was an important exercise done as fast as you could possibly move.

I see that you do Ma Xianda's Tongbei - I would imagine that there are similar drills in his curriculum.


Hi Kenneth,
Thanks for reply.
Yes,Ma's tongbei school.
We have a saying, 慢拉架子,快打拳,急打招, slow to consolidate frame, fast fist (show) form, faster sparring. So the slow training is considered essential and absolute.
Having say that, your mind need to "go ahead" of your movement. And what Strange offered is a gem.
As far as I know, GM Zhang was not too well the last years of his life, so I don't know how he is able to show you "fast" Xingyi and its essence.
Having say that, there is no denial that he may specifically instruct you to train this way.
Cheers,
Over

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