Crocop's, He Jing-han's and Chen Xiaowang's Injuries

[Andy_S]

Just read this on Fightland: Mirko "Crocop's' retirement ramblings. Clearly his bod has been badly degraded by the intense training that the modern MMA athlete must undergo. Sobering to read how badly damaged this once-awesome fighter is today:

Linky:
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/mirko-cr ... st-retired

But Crocop is a competitive athlete engaged, at the highest level, in the most demanding format in combat sports (if not ALL sports).

I was very surprised to learn (over on the video thread) that Bagua He Jing-han recently underwent a back operation due to his long-term MA training.

AFAIK, Master He was not a fighter, but a practitioner and a teacher of an art that is billed as a system for nurturing, rather than degrading the body into one's senior years. Given this, I was surprised to learn about his operation, particularly as IMA are said to be therapeutic spine strengtheners, not degraders. When I spent a day with him about a decade ago here in Korea, he was a font of wisdom about IMA and postural mechanics, who gave me some excellent advice.

It was also mentioned that Chen Xiaowang underwent a knee operation. To me, this was less surprising, given his famed proclivity for demonstrating fajing and hard stamps - which are conspicuous in the Chen forms. I don't train as much or as hard as Chen does, but it has become pretty obvious to me over recent years that constant, repeated stamps on unsprung (eg concrete) floors are probably not a wise idea.

Even so these two men are both masters of (supposedly) nurturing arts.

So:
Does long-term, dedicated IMA practice upgrade or degrade the physical body...?

Master He used to post on this forum - if anyone can invite him to join the conversation, please do so.

[wayne hansen]

I think chens knee problems might come from the spiralling of the knees rather than stomping

[GrahamB]

There are so many variables at play from genetics to diet and lifestyle that I don't know if you can equate it down to a simple 'Chen style is bad for your knees'. Doing nothing at all and being too sedentary is bad for you knees as well.

I even know somebody who injured themselves doing the simple 'all round stance' or 'hold the ball' Zhan Zhuang!

The world's a dangerous place people - and nobody is getting out of here alive!

[middleway]

FWIW, Ref HJH.

I spoke to Alex about He Jinghans surgery and apparently it was over a year ago and he is back to full strength and training hard like nothing had happened already. A good testament to his work.

[KEND]

I think anyone practicing at an advanced level will suffer later in life, This is apparent in sports where often parts of the body are overstressed over many years and later become weakened. I have noticed in Chen style that some practitioners in an effort to get lower misalign toe and knee. Bagua is an excellent exercise for the body but the twisting action can cause overextension of deep internal muscles which must be taken into account as you age

[Partridge_Run]

It was also mentioned that Chen Xiaowang underwent a knee operation. To me, this was less surprising, given his famed proclivity for demonstrating fajing and hard stamps - which are conspicuous in the Chen forms. I don't train as much or as hard as Chen does, but it has become pretty obvious to me over recent years that constant, repeated stamps on unsprung (eg concrete) floors are probably not a wise idea.

And apparently you already forgot what Charles mentioned in that thread.
If you recall, doctors were very surprised by CXW's quick recovery, and he himself attributed the injury to an accident he had while training on ice.

You like to gossip Andy_S.

[charles]

I think chens knee problems might come from the spiralling of the knees rather than stomping

Before the rumour mills completely take over, CXW told me that he was practicing on a slippery surface when his foot slid out from under him, tearing the meniscus in his knee. I have a photo of his X-ray that shows the damage. My training partner, a radiologist, looked at his X-rays and demonstrated for him, on a lemon, the surgery that needed to be done and the nature of the damage. He had the surgery done the following summer in San Diego and was up and walking around in a fraction of the time that the average person would who had undergone that surgery.

The injury is not particularly uncommon, so I'm told by my training partner, in any high-level athlete. It isn't "because he does Chen style Taijiquan".

Whether or not repeated stomping on hard surfaces is good or bad for you is another question. Some Chen practitioners argue yes, others no. Seems to depend on the individual practitioner how good or bad it is. And, their age.

[charles]

So:
Does long-term, dedicated IMA practice upgrade or degrade the physical body...?

You already know the answer to your question: it depends on what you practice and how you practice it.

My primary teacher started training martial arts at the age of 8, starting with Shaolin he learned from his grandfather. He went on to do very rigorous training, in a variety of styles, that was very hard and damaging to his body. To make a long story short, I once asked him that if he was already an accomplished fighter, why did he take up Taijiquan. He said, "To heal myself". He was in constant pain. The obvious question was then, "Did it work, are you now healed?". He said, "Yes".

The important question is what practices did he learn, and from whom, that were effective in his healing? I'm not too interested in a public discussion of that.

[Bao]

The injury is not particularly uncommon, so I'm told by my training partner, in any high-level athlete. It isn't "because he does Chen style Taijiquan".

Whether or not repeated stomping on hard surfaces is good or bad for you is another question. Some Chen practitioners argue yes, others no. Seems to depend on the individual practitioner how good or bad it is. And, their age.

Regardless how CXW got the damage, there's still the fact that a lot of tai chi practitioners have knee problems and that Chen style seem to be the worst tai chi style for the knees. I don't have any sources... but I know this is true... Because everyone keep saying so.... ....

[Bhassler]

If you can consistently take people who are, for example, middle-aged, overweight, out of shape, and have knee issues, and use your stuff to make a significant improvement in those peoples lives and knee functions, then you can claim to have at least some knowledge of how knees work and what's good for them. Same applies to back issues or whatever. Otherwise, you're just guessing. Nothing else proves anything.

[Michael Babin]

People are funny [and not always in a ha-ha way]. Years ago when I told people that I was in line for a total hip replacement I often heard a variation of "That's strange, you teach tai chi and that's supposed to make you healthy, isn't it?"

I'm reminded of a local taiji colleague [R.I.P.] who when first diagnosed with cancer was told by what she thought was a close friend that her taiji and Reiki abilities must have been fraudulent if she got something like cancer, despite her experience teaching and healing others. Amazing how people can be quick to condemn when you show a little human frailty.

Yes, any decent taiji and/or martial training can bring health-building but long-term martial arts training of any intensity usually brings long-term injuries when you do more than touchy-feely push-hands. I've met a few long-term practitioners who have avoided such; but most of the ones I know locally [and a few famous fellows] are riddled with joint troubles and have needed surgeries or chronic care to manage their pain. It's a tribute to our stupidity that we keep going, even sometimes when we have to revise how we train and teach.

Wear and tear is inevitable in even the best athletes, not to mention recreational martial artists, and to think otherwise is to demonstrate how lucky you are personally or that you don't know your martial peers enough to hear about their troubles.

Anyway, this topic has been discussed in other threads and it's obvious that a few posting here have sailed through their martial/taiji careers in good whack health-wise and others have not. I would undo some of the training that I did for decades but not most of it. In the end, there's always a price to pay for knowledge of any worth... and I ain't talking about dollars.

[D_Glenn]

There is schools that do stuff where they're unknowingly stretching the patellar ligament of the knee, and over time the subtle pull on this large ligament affects the smaller ligaments of the knee, but cause and affect are misunderstood and it's usually too little to late. The saying 'Keep the knees over the toes' is actually to remedy this while the foot is moving.

.

[Pandrews1982]

I've never experienced any signficant injury from practicing xing yi (other than the obvious injuries from being hit around and thrown about).

That said I have just started working with a personal trainer with a specialism in biomechanics, for two reasons. I want to remain injury free, and to improve my movement, correct any muscular imbalances and tightness I may not realise I have.

A few years ago I attended a dance class with some professional dancers and realised that many of even the high level martial artists I have seen or met would not be able to match their ability in movement and flexibility. Granted dancing is not fighting and there are functional considerations to what movements you use for what. But at that point I began to research other movement based activities and looking more at my body not just from the MA viewpoint, its bringing in a whole range of other things to my practice.

As for injuries, sometimes they just happen and torn knees are common in many activities. Knee issues, hip issues can often be due to other health problems, obesity etc. I'm also looking more at keeping myself physically strong and healthy as well as practising martial arts, you might not have to be an athlete to fight well but it sure doesn't hurt either.

[Bao]

. Amazing how people can be quick to condemn when you show a little human frailty.

True

The other thing.. something that people won't accept is how much genes come into play. Cancer, bone fragility... Loss of hair ... So much have to do with what was brought to us from generations through our parents. There are hundred year old people who have smoked all of their years and 25 year old people who die in cancer. Life is unfair and there's no remedy to unfairness of Faith.

[GrahamB]

It seems that in CMA you end up inuring yourself.

In jiujitsu, other people injure you.

Different methods, same result. lol