Sam Tam demonstrating form

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:47 am

GrahamB wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I just find it really bizarre that anybody would take Cheng's Tai Chi as some sort of standard for Tai Chi to then argue about...?

But don't mind me - carry on :)


I mean, say what you like about the quality of his system, but you can't deny he had the single most impactful influence on Taijiquan in the United States (at least).


Yes, totally true.

If it makes you happy, go for it.


Happier than BJJ did, at least. :D
"Never met a word that I wouldn't like a weapon just brandish."
- El-Producto
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:22 pm

GrahamB wrote:I just find it really bizarre that anybody would take Cheng's Tai Chi as some sort of standard for Tai Chi to then argue about...?

Even today, I still don't understand what he was doing there.

Image

He should have one palm facing down (control wrist) and another palm facing up (control elbow) when he did "double pulling".

Image

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9744
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:01 pm

johnwang wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I just find it really bizarre that anybody would take Cheng's Tai Chi as some sort of standard for Tai Chi to then argue about...?

Even today, I still don't understand what he was doing there.

Image

He should have one palm facing down (control wrist) and another palm facing up (control elbow) when he did "double pulling".

Image

Image


When "sticking" properly you don't need the opposing palm there. That specific technique is demonstrated elsewhere.
"Never met a word that I wouldn't like a weapon just brandish."
- El-Producto
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:10 pm

The application is on the left
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4131
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:58 pm

He should have one palm facing down (control wrist) and another palm facing up (control elbow) when he did "double pulling".


Why would you need to pull from two different directions at the same time? Is the Chang variant a multiple opponent application only?

The more details you add, the more you limit the possible applications. In Yang style, every movement has several different applications, they are not limited to one single application or one specific standard.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8119
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:44 pm

Bao wrote:Why would you need to pull from two different directions at the same time? Is the Chang variant a multiple opponent application only?

The more details you add, the more you limit the possible applications. In Yang style, every movement has several different applications, they are not limited to one single application or one specific standard.

That Taiji move is called 双捋 (Shung Lu).

双 - double
捋 - pulling

When you pull your opponent's right arm (to your right), he will punch you with his left arm. you then

- release your right elbow holding hand, grab on his left wrist,
- release your right wrist holding hand, grab on his left elbow,
- pull his left arm (to your left), and use his left arm to pin his own right arm.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9744
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:51 pm

johnwang wrote:
When you pull your opponent's right arm (to your right), he will punch you with his left arm. you then

- release your right elbow holding hand, grab on his left wrist,
- release your right wrist holding hand, grab on his left elbow,
- pull his left arm (to your left), and use his left arm to pin his own right arm.


Why on earth would you want to release his arm if you already have a grip? Keep on to the grip and move your own body by stepping is a far better way. Gripping someone punching at you is hard enough, why would you want give up your hard earned advantage and why would you believe it would be so easy to pull it off twice?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8119
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:26 pm

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:
When you pull your opponent's right arm (to your right), he will punch you with his left arm. you then

- release your right elbow holding hand, grab on his left wrist,
- release your right wrist holding hand, grab on his left elbow,
- pull his left arm (to your left), and use his left arm to pin his own right arm.


Why on earth would you want to release his arm if you already have a grip? Keep on to the grip and move your own body by stepping is a far better way. Gripping someone punching at you is hard enough, why would you want give up your hard earned advantage and why would you believe it would be so easy to pull it off twice?

You don't have to do that. The original "grasp sparrow's tail" has

- Peng
- Lu
- Ji
- An
- Double pulling
- Single whip.

Whoever created the 108 moves Yang form had put that move there. You can treat "double pulling" as 2 separate moves. You can also consider it as 2 moves combo to achieve "one arm pin on top of another arm".

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9744
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:42 pm

You can also consider it as 2 moves combo to achieve "one arm pin on top of another arm".


That’s a better way, imo. And that is one way to interpret the Yang/CMC palm down movement. You don’t need to show grabbing in the form. One way is to parry his left punch with your left hand and then move your right elbow over his arm (then you can give him a right backfist to his face, etc). A very common, simple TCMA strategy. The Yang style movement is more logical for this type of application than the double grab, IMO.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8119
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby GrahamB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:12 am

I've always done it as an arm pull followed by a pull back combined with a palm strike to the face.

Image
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12860
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:42 am

GrahamB wrote:I've always done it as an arm pull followed by a pull back combined with a palm strike to the face.

Image


So there you're breaking his inertia to start his movement and need a bit of extra strength and grip. I'd get that first part done sort of in that fashion, but with just the right hand, with "retreat to ride tiger".The primary application I learned there (in a CMC lineage) for single whip involved blending with incoming force that doesn't need that grip because they're coming at you and you're keeping them out on the surface of the bubble, just a little bit of extra encouragement and you can get their top ahead of their bottom and roll them. You actually don't want the grip there because it's slower to release.

I think it's worth noting, too, that Adam Mizner, ostensibly teaching "the 37 posture form created by Cheng Man Ching and refined by Huang Sheng Shyan" doesn't keep both palms facing down. The right hand is at a 45 degree angle like -- \ instead of -- --. I don't know what application ideas, if any, he would associate it with. Applications don't seem to be a part of their training.

Alex Dong, so YCF filtered through the Dong family, does it with his palms facing out, fingers up, like | |, but his elbows go out and it ends more like / \. Likewise I'm not familiar with their applications.
"Never met a word that I wouldn't like a weapon just brandish."
- El-Producto
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Giles on Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:48 am

There are loads of possible scenarios, applications and variations for this move, as for most +/- Yang style form moves. As some others here also say or imply, if you focus specifically in the form on just one narrow application, then you're limiting your body and mind. Which will tend to result in you trying to force through a particular application in practice. Might work, might be totally appropriate in that moment, maybe not.
The more 'neutral'-looking form executions require that more is happening on the inside. If a lot of body and mind principles are in play as you do a more 'neutral' move, then the neutral execution is better training because you'll be better able to respond spontaneously and adequately and surprisingly to incoming forces, with different shades of application. But if there are few body and mind principles in play on the inside, then the move is in danger of becoming 'flat', or just weakness. Then incoming forces will lead to you simply collapsing.
So a more 'neutral' form can be full of taiji-gongfu, or just wishy-washy. The proof of the pudding is in the pushing. Or self-defending.
That's why I tend to take a critical view of beginners (without other martial arts experience) doing the CMC form in just the same way that CMC himself did towards the end of his life.
Last edited by Giles on Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1015
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:05 am

Giles wrote:There are loads of possible scenarios, applications and variations for this move, as for most +/- Yang style form moves. As some others here also say or imply, if you focus specifically in the form on just one narrow application, then you're limiting your body and mind. Which will tend to result in you trying to force through a particular application in practice. Might work, might be totally appropriate in that moment, maybe not.
The more 'neutral'-looking form executions require that more is happening on the inside. If a lot of body and mind principles are in play as you do a more 'neutral' move, then the neutral execution is better training because you'll be better able to respond spontaneously and adequately and surprisingly to incoming forces, with different shades of application. But if there are few body and mind principles in play on the inside, then the move is in danger of becoming 'flat', or just weakness. Then incoming forces will lead to you simply collapsing.
So a more 'neutral' form can be full of taiji-gongfu, or just wishy-washy. The proof of the pudding is in the pushing. Or self-defending.
That's why I tend to take a critical view of beginners (without other martial arts experience) doing the CMC form in just the same way that CMC himself did towards the end of his life.


The way I learned applications were that they were an idea, not THE WAY. They serve to help you find the energies of a movement, but yes exactly as you mentioned, we don't want to make the mistake of defining any particular application as the only valid expression of the movement.

That being said, certain postures do lend themselves more readily to certain applications. In my own application of the art I tend to think more abstractly about the desired energy flow in a movement and then just let my body create an expression that will manifest it. Only afterwards can I look at it and try to compare it to a formal posture for reference.

I grabbed FZW and YCF's books off the shelf to compare their ideas here. FZW describes the palm down variant and doesn't mention any application. YCF's described application is simply turning around to face someone attacking from the rear, also with the palms down.

And then there is Yang Jwing Ming, he describes an application similar to what I mentioned, guiding the opponent past your body, but his hands are doing something COMPLETELY different.

Image
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Never met a word that I wouldn't like a weapon just brandish."
- El-Producto
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:46 am

At the risk of beating this detail to death, I think it's also worth mentioning in the CMC tradition I first learned it the parallel arms are also used to check proper use of the waist.

When you are turning properly the hands stay parallel and even, but if you twist one will stretch out further than the other. Granted you can turn properly with your hands and arms situated differently, but doing it properly according to that tradition they're parallel and even.
"Never met a word that I wouldn't like a weapon just brandish."
- El-Producto
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:17 pm

I can think of at least 8 applications in single whip
Backfist is not one of them it has its own place in the form
Try looking at SW as a variation of GST it will make it clearer
But like said elsewhere it is more a set of principles
To grab and use strength against your opponent is an error
If you don’t recognise that perhaps you should not comment on tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4131
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests