neijia expert and esoterism

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby zrm on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:58 pm

Peacedog wrote:Wan Lai Sheng summed it up best when he said, "Ziranmen is an excellent basis for spiritual practice, but not a spiritual practice in and of itself."


True. That said Wan Lai Sheng's teacher Du Xin Wu was also considered one of the great Taoist masters and had strong connections to the Dragon Gate Taoist sect.

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/authentic-portraits-of-zhao-bichen-and-du-xinwu.html
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:46 am

thank you very much

if other example of that kind of link you are welcome

thanks
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby zrm on Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:55 am

Du Xinwu had a close relationship to Yang Cheng Fu, Sun Lu Tang and Li Jinglin (wudang sword). Ziranmen incorporates a form circle walking which originated from a qigong practice used by the Dragon Gate Taoist sect. It is often assumed that this is same group of Daoists that Dai Haichuan was referring to when discussing the origin of his own circle walking practice in Baguazhang.

If by esoteric master you mean a person that primarily practices a form Buddhism or Taoism, then every Shaolin monk who was an actual monk would also fall under this category, as the Shaolin temple is a place for Chan Buddhist practice first and martial arts second. A recent example would be Hai Deng who was an accomplished chan buddhist and was invited to instruct at the Shaolin temple in the early 1980s. Although some people argue that he technically wasn't actually a Shaolin monk because there is uncertainty whether his martial art instructors came from the Shaolin temple itself.

http://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/chan-master-hai-deng-1902-1989.html

Some say that Sun Lu Tang was the one that started to incorporate Daoism with internal martial arts, but if you look at Chang Naizhou's writings on martial art (1750?) it also has a lot of references to Daoist alchemy practices. It is also one of the few written records of Chinese martial arts from the pre-republican era, supposedly due to the fact that the Qing dynasty went through a period where they burned any book pertaining to martial arts instruction.

In the western world you have Girard Thilbault d'Anvers who incorporated a lot esoteric symbolism throughout his fencing book, but didn't explain what any of it meant.
Last edited by zrm on Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:13 am

Here's some background information on the origins of a branch of Daoism and their Daoist Cultivation practices being merged with the Chinese Martial Arts and then becoming an Internal Chinese martial art. This particular history focuses on one branch, but take note that 冯克善 Feng Keshan(1776~1858) was in another branch. Everybody famous now, probably, informally, studied with Feng.

刘奉天 Liu Fengtian (1617―1689) 宗师,自幼研习家传导引术,后经高人指点,修行 (real name was 李廷玉 Li Tingyu) was a follower of the Daoist Bagua Religion and during the years of the Qing Emperor (1644-1662) he set up his own sect of Bagua schools and had five Daoist schools around his hometown in Shandong province and taught many people but only accepted eight great-disciples: 郜云龙 Gao Yunlong (aka 离卦 Li Trigram 卦长 Trigram Elder), 郭图元 Guo Tuyuan、陈南兴(河南人) Chen Nanxing (the Henan Man)、张照祥 Zhang Zhaoxiang、姬易学(山西人) Ji Yixue (the Shanxi Man)、刘兴邦 Liu Xingbang、邱执奉 Qiu Zhifeng、王国清 Wang Guoqing (震卦教的开山祖师 Who would later go on to found the Zhen Trigram Branch)。

郜云龙 Gao Yunlong (aka 离卦 Li Trigram 卦长 Trigram Elder) would later change his teaching name to 郜难国 Gao Nanguo. Legend says he's a descendant of 赵匡胤 Zhao Kuan Yin (Song Tai Zu emperor(927-976)). The family had previously gone with the surname of 宋 Song but had later changed it to 郜 Gao. Before he entered the Bagua Religion school he was proficient in the martial art of 32 Pattern Long Boxing (三十二式长拳), aka "红拳 Hong Quan". Gao Yunlong achieved the Dao and "Penetrated the Heavens to become a True Person" (Zhenren) and worked with Liu Fengtian to combine the Wen (Literary) Daoist material with the Wu (martial) and combine them into one single practice. They joined their efforts and studied and researched to find a way where one could be both an extremely skilled fighter and become a Zhenren (True Person, the highest achievement in Daoism/ Enlightened). The birth and death of 郜云龙 Gao Yunlong is unknown but the Li Trigram school is dated to the middle years of the second Qing Emperor (1661-1722). Liu Fengtian probably died around 1701. Liu Fengtian was invited to the capitol in Beijing but brought all eight of his great-disciples along. After Liu Fengtian's death his son Liu Ru took over his school. While Gao Yunlong divided his own school into two schools- in Henan and Shandong.

He would have his students follow the Daoist practices every morning called the "Zhen Kong" (True Empty), and learn 八字真诀 Ba Zi Zhen Jue (True Secrets of the Eight Characters), and 神拳 Shen Quan (Spirit Boxing), and also practice a variant of 红拳 Hong Quan.

He combined Hong Quan with the internal theories of using the Qi/ energy harmonized/blended with martial movements. Where one was practicing the external and internal movements to be in harmony and work like one unit -- and according to the theory of Wuji and Taiji. The Taiji moves and gives rise to Yang, Movement's opposite is Stillness, and Stillness gives rise to Yin, Movement and Stillness are locked in an endless turning circle. Yang changing to Yin gives rise to the Five Elements: Water, Fire, Wood, Metal, and Earth, Wuji arranges the elements into the endless cycles of the Four Seasons: (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter). The Five Elements, Yin and Yang, and the Taiji are then used to express the mutual and varied changes in the Shape of the martial movements and thus is born the fusion of combining the practice of exercising Qi and the Martial movements and is the first Nei Jia Quanshu (Internal Family Martial Skills) and is the creation of blending the Bagua Religion's Innermost Secrets with the martial arts, in order to teach them both.


[ 郜氏离卦教的传承关系如下: Gao Family Li Trigram Teaching. Lineage and Relationships as follows:
---嫡传后人郜氏 (Handed down in direct line from the Gao Family; Generation:
  1. 杨士(四)海 Yang Shi (Si) Hai, (乾隆四十三年 was banished in the year (1778)充军西藏 --- taught 杜恒信 Du Hengxin ---郜晋中 Gao Jinzhong --- 郜从化 Gao Conghua -郜大(郜承福)"Big Gao" Gao Chengfu
  2. 郜二(郜得福) Gao 2nd (Gao Defu) 郜巩(郜拱)"Gao Gong" (Gao Gong) ---王光 Wang Guang --- 王祥 Wang Xiang --- 冯克善 Feng Keshan(1776~1858)
  3. 郜三(郜建福)Gao 3rd (Gao Jianfu) 郜添麟(高道远)Gao Tianlin (Gao Daoyuan).
  4. (四子从幼亡继远)4th Branch died out.
  5. 郜五(郜鸿福)Gao 5th (Gao Hongfu) 郜添佑 Gao Tianyou --- 郜生文 Gao Shengwen --- 郜与 Gao Yu --- 郜坦照 Gao Tanzhao --- 郜东来 Gao Donglai.]

(Note -- this is just one Family's Branch of the Li Trigram Sect and it's not really known how many branches their were, or at least I don't know. So I'm just detailing out the history of this one Gao Family.)

杨士(四)海 Yang Shi (Si) Hai became Gao Yunlong's first student. He learned and continued Gao's work of blending the Wen and Wu known as Wenwu Gong.

After Gao Yunlong's death 杨士海 Yang Shihai started a variation of the Li Gua Yi He Quan Men (Li Trigram Theory and Boxing Harmonized System) but now only known as the martial art of 神拳 Shen Quan (Spirit Boxing).

杜恒信 Du Hengxin had grew up with a desire to always learn and practice martial arts and had studied his village style called Jing Family Boxing and became quite skilled and then would seek out Yang Shihai. His training progressed at a very rapid rate, both internally with the Daoist practices and progressed further martially and had both great fighting skills, good health, and mental functioning.

Around 1778 杨士海 Yang Shihai was somehow tricked into a scheme and ended up being banished from the Capitol, but 杜恒信 Du Hengxin, being from a wealthy farming family, was able to follow Yang Shihai and supported them financially and lived with him and continued studying and learning all that he knew.

杜恒信 Du Hengxin took the Wen and developed the Wu (martial) side even further. Combining the Book of Changes, Confucian, and Daoist Literary theories/ culture (Wenhua): Yin and Yang, Five Elements and blended it with battlefield tactics, Horseback, Martial art, into a cohesive Quan Jia (Fighting Framework).

During 杜恒信 Du Hengxin's time the martial art was still in it's fledgling stage/ prototype but became famous for it's Yue Bu Jieming Qi Qiang (Leaping Step Cut a life short Wonderful Spear), the Wensheng Liuhe Da Qiang (Great scholar Six Harmony Large Spear), the Jiu Lu Meihua Da Dao (Nine Road Plum Blossom Saber) and empty hand skills.

His art became known as 杜家拳 Du Jia Quan (Du Family Boxing) but was also called 长寿拳 Changshou Quan (Long Life Boxing) and because of the practices: Six Step Frame Boxing and Five Arm Boxing-Five Step Frame.

杜恒信 Du Hengxin had numerous disciples such as Wang Xingang, Tian Zaitan, Hou Xianzhang, etc.

杜恒信 Du Hengxin passed on the 文武功法 Wenwu Gong Fa (Scholarly and Martial Methods Combined) aka Wensheng Quan (Great Scholar Boxing) to his son 杜玉珍 Du Yuzhen, who in turn passed on the 杜家拳 Du Jia Quan (Du Family Boxing) and 文武功法 Wenwu Gong Fa (Scholarly and Martial Methods Combined) to his son 杜广穆 Du Guangmu, who passed it to his son 杜金房 Du Jinfang, who was really strong and took the martial art to an even greater level (拳法拳技炉火纯青 Fighting technique and fighting skill were brought to the point of perfection.)

杜金房 Du Jinfang would teach 宋传平 Song Chuanping (1892—1996; who would teach 宋隆康 Song Longkang; who would teach 王安林 Wang Anlin (?) which gives another version of 长寿拳 Changshou Quan (Long Life Boxing) in the style now known as Wensheng Quan.

***
Great Master Feng Keshan (冯克善, 1776~1858), was said to have studied a multitude of martial arts since his youth, he had a natural talent and could acquire the essence of both letters and combat quickly. During his adolesence and young years Feng Keshan was a ruffian, often being involved in quarrels, fights and troubles within the community, yet he acquired quite a following and this later led to the interest in his skills and qualities by rebellious leaders.

In the Chuojiao tradition it is thought that Feng Keshan studied from many teachers since his youth, but was principally a disciple (in 1797) of Master Wang Xiang from Rencheng (today's Jinning, Shandong), Master Tang Hengdong from Hua County (Huaxian, Henan) and Master Wang and Li from Hejian. The various boxing systems from those teachers and others included Erlangquan, Huaquan, Yanqingquan, Meihuazhuang, BaFanshou, Hongquan and Zhiziquan (Chuojiao) which are the basis of the skills that Feng Keshan later propagated across the Cangzhou and Baoding regions of Hebei Province.

As his teacher Wang Xiang was a well respected and capable boxing master, as well as a prominent figure in the Bailian Jiao (White Lotus) and later the Bagua Jiao (8 Trigrams, also known as Tianli Jiao, 天理教- The Heavenly Order). Feng Keshan became associated with Lin Qing and Li Wencheng, to become the leader of the Li Trigram. However, after his teachers death in the 4th month of 1813, Feng Keshan became disinterested in the Uprising plans and abandoned the cause. Official Qing government records indicated that Feng Keshan was executed by the Qing government in 1814, but this was common practice to proclaim the death of rebellious leaders to demonstrate success over rebellions.

Feng Keshan and some members of his sect dispersed to Zhili (Hebei province). As a result, Feng Keshan (or Zhao Canyi in the Raoyang tradition) was the father of Chuojiao Men. research has confirmed the various village records (Shen County, Raoyang and Li County), traditions (both Meihuazhuang and Chuojiao) passed on amongst martial arts practitioners that Feng Ke Shan was indeed Zhao Canyi, Zhao Laoxian, Feng Keming and Wandering Shaolin Monk Fa Jing , as those were all aliases that were used to hide his identity from authorities after the failed Bagua ‘8 Trigrams’ uprising.

In 1813 Feng Keshan had travelled from Dezhou county in Shandong province to various counties across Hebei Province. He changed his names many times and as a result was known in each area often by a different name. Only his closest disciples would know his actual name. In Dezhou he taught Liu Tang Gen (6 Sequences of Roots). In Raoyang he first taught Huaquan (Marvellous Boxing) in 12 Tangzi (Routines) in the Southern villages. In the Northern villages he taught Jinggang Jia (Jingang frames) and Jing Gang Chui (Jingang Strikes). In Shen county, in addition to Jingang Chui he taught various boxing methods - Erlang quan and Bafan shou.

Master Feng Keshan’s earlier students in 1811, were Song Yulin and Song Yuelong in Dezhou , whom had joined the Li Trigram division of the 8 Trigrams Sect. After Song Yuelong having lost a duel with Feng Keshan his followers all were to join the Li Trigram. They were recorded as having studied the Liu Tang Gen methods from Feng Keshan. Later around 1815 in Raoyang his disciples included the Duan Family, the Duan brothers (Duan Yonghe & Duan Yongqing) received tuition in Chuojiao as they were taught privately (Zhao Canyi (name in Raoyang) was hired as a private martial arts teacher for the household). Also around the time there was a famous Hongquan (Red) and Huaquan (Flower) boxing teacher Zhou Laoting, who became Master Feng’s senior disciple and contributed to further developing the Chuojiao art in Raoyang. Feng Keshan then in approx. 1825 headed to Lixian (Li county), northwest from Raoyang. He was introduced to the Liu family (to teach their three sons) by Duan Yonghe to become resident teacher there.

The Liu family records state three teachers of the household Feng keshan, Yang Jing and Tang Youyi. This time Master Feng taught a complete and ordered system which included Liu Tang Gen, Jing Gang Jia as fundamentals and then 18 sequences of Chuo jiao divided into scholarly and military (Wen/Wu Tangzi). In addition Yia zi Chui, San lan Shou and other great works were developed. Although teachers of the Liu family proper other locals were also taught. Some of the disciples in Li county included Wei Chang Yi and Wei Laofang amongst many others. Another Master Wang Zhiguo of the same generation as Master Zhao Canyi, was also a practitioner of the Chuojiao and Fanzi martial arts and contributed to various branches of the style. His sons were sent to study with Zhao Canyi and developed excellent skills. Since Zhao Canyi spent many years in Hebei teaching in different areas, the variations to Chuojiao are numerous. Fundamentally, however they have all become similar in concept and essence whilst the structure and organization of the systems contents may differ. ~ http://taipinginstitute.com/menu-styles/zy/chuojiao


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Last edited by D_Glenn on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:01 pm

es·o·ter·ic [adjective]
intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.
As in "esoteric philosophical debates"


oc·cult [adjective]

1. of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomena.
"a follower of occult practices similar to voodoo"
synonyms: supernatural, magic, magical, mystical, mystic, psychic, preternatural, paranormal, transcendental; More


The two are often confused because there are places where they overlap.

Probably everyone in China knew or practiced some form of religion. Not everyone practiced a martial art; that was a smaller club. Of those, some, at some point, incorporated aspects of Chinese philosophy or religion into the theory or martial arts. These too, were in the minority. Anyone who practices an "ima" is practicing an esoteric art, though now there may be a billion practitioners. Most practitioners won't actually apply Chinese philosophy or Taoist magic to their martial arts practice, if they practice.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:05 pm

Du Xinwu seem to be majorily a martial art artist? not a daoist master?

and origine of dragon gate daoist sect?

is there some lineage from them to lao zi even if lao zi is more a legendary than a real historical figure
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby zrm on Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:11 pm

Wan Lai Sheng was definitely a martial artist first and foremost. With Du xinwu it's harder to determine. Nobody is exactly sure when his link to that group began as the branch he belonged to was pretty secretive. It is public record that he essentially became a Taoist priest and hermit in his later life. Oral history has it that he was part of the longmen group early on and that he was considered one of the more senior members of that tradition.

The dragon gate group traces themselves back to qiu chunji
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:59 pm

ok so did duxingwu teach some specific sciences to master yang cheng fu and other master?

and what is the practice of dragon gate sect?

thanks
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby zrm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:45 pm

AL2016 wrote:ok so did duxingwu teach some specific sciences to master yang cheng fu and other master?

Not sure. There was definitely some teachings from Li Jinglin that were adopted by the Yang family. Li Jinglin practiced a taoist martial art centered around the straight sword, which was later adopted by the Yang family as part of their straight sword practice.

There is a book by Huang Yuanxiu (Li Jinglin's disciple) where he discusses crosstraining with the Yang family, Sun Lu Tang, Du Xin Wu and Liu Bai Chuan, etc etc. In it there's also a photo of all the masters seated together. You can read it here.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/martial-arts-discussions-by-huang-yuanxiu/

AL2016 wrote:what is the practice of dragon gate sect?


From my understanding the Dragon Gate group mainly study daoist philosophy, qigong, meditation and neidan (internal alchemy). You see videos of modern dragon gate branches doing various forms of taiji. I think some of the older branches have their forms of martial arts. Du Xin Wu essentially modified practices from an existing taoist martial art and called it ziranmen.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:33 pm

what i mean when i talk about teaching is not martial art or neijia teaching but
mystical like incatation, spirit devil communication, exorcism, mystical number, yiking etc...
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby zrm on Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:19 pm

Maybe send an email to Serge Augier or Alex Kozma. Serge trains Ziranmen via the Du Xin Wu lineage but also covers more esoteric stuff such as the Yi Jing and Ba Zi and may have more information about whether or not Du Xin Wu passed this knowledge on to other masters.

http://www.sergeaugier.com/accueil-en/

All you will find in the public record is that Du Xin Wu was either close friends with or cross trained with various nejia masters at some stage and that various masters got parts of their martial system from practicing taoist priests.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:20 am

tres bonne idee good idea merci
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:29 pm

AL2016 wrote:yes that s what i look for

example of great martial expert having studied spiritual path or esoterism sciences with a daoism master

for wx zhai introducing a daoism master its lijianyu one of his top level student for health that told me this in 2009 in beijing


Biography of Niu Sheng Xian (牛胜先) [born 1938] - Richard Hunn ...
wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/biography-of-niu-sheng-xian-2927532...
4 Oct 2014 - Niu Jin Bao then taught his son – Niu Sheng Xian – who in turn became the 2nd generation descendant of the Qianfeng lineage. Currently in ...
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:54 am

thanks
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Yang / Wu Lineages and Daoism

Postby Bugang on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:18 pm

The "Yang (/Wu) Family 40 chapters" contain a lot of reference to Daoist Philosophy. There is Information about it in douglas Wile's Books (I think it's "Ancestors"). These Texts were handed down from Yang Banhou to Wu Jianquan. And there seems to be more in Wu's Lineage: Wu's Disciple Cheng Wing Kwong (Zheng Rongguang) wrote a private Manual on Immortality Methods / Xianshu.
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