neijia expert and esoterism

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:20 pm

:) I think we have different definitions of esoteric.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18369
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:59 am

yeniseri wrote:
Steve James wrote:The "internal" arts are esoteric by definition. It's a very small club in the cmas.


I have never known the internal CMA to be esoteric.

This occured after Sun Lutang began his attempt to thrust them into the greater public domain and at which time, modern weapons began to take over and the many not possessing the martial skill and lack of access to training, it created a level of astonishment that begins with "He who cannot do, publishes.......and it fit those who were enthralled by CMS but incapable of learning, or participating in the cultural milieu of the real practitioners.

The CMA pulp fiction novels made into early movies galvanized the sentiments of the day...... ???

How about the “Boxers” that participated in the boxer rebellion, weren’t there some esotericism involved, as spirit possession ? Maybe Sun Lutang took part in the rebellion and got inspired
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:21 am

Can you developp the fact sunlutang took part the rebelion and got inspired?
AL2016
Anjing
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:39 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:31 am

AL2016 wrote:Can you developp the fact sunlutang took part the rebelion and got inspired?


You may be interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wooCeXJmpw4

See also
http://bagua.freehostia.com/boxer.html
Last edited by Steve James on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18369
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:08 am

AL2016 wrote:Can you developp the fact sunlutang took part the rebelion and got inspired?

It was hinted in the thread that SLT’s teaching was the start of a more “esoteric” teaching of the IMA’s ? I might have misunderstood that though. So I just thought about the Boxer rebellion and how some “boxers” participated probably did exercises that was more of the “esoteric” rather than effective boxing believing they could withstand rifle bullets and bayonets with their bare bodies....Ski just speculated SLT might have somehow been around there, he would have been a well trained boxer by that time?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:18 pm

Maybe they were taking druggs?
AL2016
Anjing
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:39 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:03 am

I don’t know the effect of Opium on the mind and body, but the use of it was quite around in China during the era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _Rebellion
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:50 am

Yes i heard master Yang cheng fu was an opium seller

in Sun lun tang s article

some factions in the Chinese martial arts community have distrusted him for a variety of reasons


What are they?
Last edited by AL2016 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
AL2016
Anjing
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:39 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:09 am

It was hinted in the thread that SLT’s teaching was the start of a more “esoteric” teaching of the IMA’s ?


Why do you think so?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7115
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:25 am

Bao wrote:
It was hinted in the thread that SLT’s teaching was the start of a more “esoteric” teaching of the IMA’s ?


Why do you think so?

I was pointing toward ‘yeniseri’s post. I also wrote I might have misunderstood that post.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:05 am

Trick wrote:I was pointing toward ‘yeniseri’s post. I also wrote I might have misunderstood that post.


I didn't understand that either. Martial arts have always been partially excluding, partially including. Some things have been taught to the public, other things kept behind locked doors. I don't understand what SLT would have changed. He used the same vocabulary as his teachers used before him and wrote what he had been taught. But he tried to promote IMA to the broad public as health practice.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7115
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:04 am

I think when the word "esoteric" is being used here, it applies to either the mystical, supernatural, magical or something non-physical. Sometimes, they're called the "woo woo stuff." But, that's not what the word means, and fwiw I'm pretty sure that SLT was not referring to those things when he (or someone) conceived the idea of neijia and waijia.

In fact, there has been no agreement on what "internal" meant to Chinese martial artists around the time of the Boxer Rebellion (c 1900). But, by 1915 --when Sun and others formed a martial arts society in Peking (maybe Jarek, Milo or Brian K will recall the specifics). That members of that society led directly to the creation of the Nanjing Institute in 1928.

The reason for those societies had much to do with the Boxer Rebellion --that was formed to rebel "foreign devils" and their influence on China. One of those influences, other than Christianity, was the forced production of opium as a result of the Opium Wars. THe Chinese lost the war and the rebellion, and the result was a renewed sense of Chinese nationalism. No one, Sun included, wanted China to continue suffering as the "weak men of Asia."

So, a deliberate emphasis was placed on raising up those things that were Chinese, not foreign. Daoism was favored over Buddhism because it had a Chinese origin. Chinese martial arts were promoted to show their equality to foreign martial arts, and were seen as a way to improve the overall health of the nation --physically and psychologically.

Imo, Yang tcc was up-valued because it combined philosophical aspects and physical benefits; there was something in it for everyone, old and young, sick and sane. However, all Chinese mas were advanced at the time and up to the end of the nationalist period. We know what happened when Mao took over, and the situation was bleak for Cmas until after the Cultural Revolution.

Anyway, I think it'd be best to quote/cite what Sun and the other martial artists of his time meant by "internal." That doesn't mean that people today are wrong. One can choose to agree or disagree.

Hey, I found this clip from ex-students from the Nanjing institute, iinm.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=20hFMADRvWU[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 0hFMADRvWU
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18369
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 am

Steve James wrote:I think when the word "esoteric" is being used here, it applies to either the mystical, supernatural, magical or something non-physical. Sometimes, they're called the "woo woo stuff." But, that's not what the word means, and fwiw I'm pretty sure that SLT was not referring to those things when he (or someone) conceived the idea of neijia and waijia.

In fact, there has been no agreement on what "internal" meant to Chinese martial artists around the time of the Boxer Rebellion (c 1900). But, by 1915 --when Sun and others formed a martial arts society in Peking (maybe Jarek, Milo or Brian K will recall the specifics). That members of that society led directly to the creation of the Nanjing Institute in 1928.

...

Anyway, I think it'd be best to quote/cite what Sun and the other martial artists of his time meant by "internal." That doesn't mean that people today are wrong. One can choose to agree or disagree.


The best thing is to look at what is left in writing, I do agree. The problem is that people are not interested about reading and don't care about facts.

Fact: This is what Sun Lutang quotes from his teacher:

"Song [Shifting] said: “Breathing is divided into internal and external, but in boxing arts there’s no distinction between internal and external. If you are good at nurturing energy, then it’s internal. If you’re not good at nurturing energy, then it’s external. Consider the phrase [Mengzi, chapter 2a] “good at nurturing one’s noble energy”. Surely it reveals the deeper meaning of the internal school. When practicing boxing arts, seek stillness through movement. In meditation arts, seek movement through stillness. "

And:

"My teacher [Hao Weizhen] once told me: “Right from the start, this art is the same as the ‘primal gateway’ of the elixirists.” I have been studying this art for several decades, but I would not dare to say that I have a true grasp of it. However, when considering its origins, it is truly interconnected with Xingyi and Bagua in terms of theory. It is only different in its movements and the names of its postures, while as for its qualities of nurturing energy and developing spirit, there is not the slightest difference."

It's clear from what SLT writes that there was already opinions on "Internal" and what it was general meant in his time and that his teachers had learned the same things he was teaching.

The connection is the character nei from neidan and neigong, as well as Daoism and daoist practice in general.

The Biography of Wang Zhengnan from 1676 also makes a direct connection between Daoism and Neijia (well it states that Zhang Sanfeng invented it):
"Although Shaolin boxing prowess is known everywhere, it emphasizes attack, giving opponents something to take advantage of. Hence there is what is known as the internal school, which defeats movement with stillness."

We also know that Chen Wangting, from his own writings, studied Daoism and Daoist practices, so even if one would agree with the Chen family version of history, there is still a direct connection with Tai Chi and Daoist practice right from the beginning.

So if one studies what is actually there left in writing, things that anyone can read, there should be little doubt that Nei in Neijiaquan is the same as in neidan and neigong and that internal practice was meant. I.e. martial arts that focus on a kind of internal development that was originally developed in the Daoist tradition of exercises. And there should also be little doubt that the tradition of internal practice of IMA is not a merely one hundred year old tradition even though the names and packages have changed.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7115
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:45 pm

Yes when i write ésotérisme i mean
Magic or link with djinn s worldj

For example stories Saïd Sun luntang preview his death s hour and the day of his burial a stranger came in Sun s family s house with à letter saying à Old man gave me this letter to come this day. You know?this is mysticcal
AL2016
Anjing
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:39 am

Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:22 pm

some factions in the Chinese martial arts community have distrusted him(Sun lu tang) for a variety of reasons


Who know?
Last edited by AL2016 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AL2016
Anjing
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:39 am

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest