neijia expert and esoterism

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neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:50 am

hi

is esoterism like yiking taoism and other esoterism practice a step for the student that have reached the expert s level in his neijia art?

for example master sun lu tang under the advice of master chengtinghua went to the famous city specialized for yiking and became an expert in yiking

in his biography it said that master sun lutang death was mystic like he knew the hour of his death

and when he died somebody came in his house with a letter saying that master sun lutang one month before gave hime and told him to come to his adress after one month to give it to his family. but sun luntang 's son took the letter and we dont know what it was.

in yichuan master wang xiang zhai introduce master lijian yu to a taoist master that taught him the art of incantation

so have you other example of neijia expert practicing esoterism practice?

thanks
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby RobP2 on Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:54 am

I trained with some teachers who carried out esoteric or "occult" practices and others who regarded it all as superstition so I guess it varies. I would say to be wary of stories told about past masters and don't let them detract you from good training
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:19 pm

The thing is... studying chinese thought is not wrong. But the question is how this will lead you, or stop you from, understanding the chinese mindset and cultural differencies. The later is good for your practice. Mysticism might not. I know a great practitioner who always speaks about daoism, qi and stuff. Even things like multiple realities, reading the future with yijing etc. He believes all of that stuff. But again, he is a great practitioner. But practically, he would do everything the same with or without that mystical framework. Tai Chi and IMA might have things in common with traditional chinese thought, but these arts are about doing, not about thinking. So whatever occupies your brain, try to think less and do more.... :P ... ;)
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby JessOBrien on Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:51 pm

If you read Taoist books you see a lot of talk about Dantians, breathing methods, various energy channels, Qi, etc. Look at Sun Lu Tang's books and you'll see a lot of that same language. So I do think for some Chinese martial arts, there are spiritual cultivation methods incorporated into the training. Some do and some don't.

Whether it works or not is open to debate. :)
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:35 pm

JessOBrien wrote:If you read Taoist books you see a lot of talk about Dantians, breathing methods, various energy channels, Qi, etc. Look at Sun Lu Tang's books and you'll see a lot of that same language...


The problem with Sun Lutang's books is that the translators don't understand to read the stuff in a practical manner so they translate it in a literary, theoretical and thus in many ways uncomprehendable manner. In fact, all of those mystical sounding things is meant in a very practical, hands on kind of way. But it's all written in a very old way of describing things, a kind of use of language that hardly exists in China today.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:55 pm

Of course people should study the relationship between Chinese philosophical and spiritual culture to martial arts, but they should remain grounded in reality and not "become possessed by a demon" (I mean they shouldn't get carried away in mysticism).
At the very least, if you do internal martial arts, you should understand Taiji, the five elements, and the bagua diagram. On a deeper level, when you interrogate the classics in their original language, some of them are very deeply connected to Daoism. Understanding how Daoism understands the structure of the mind can really help you make progress in life in general, I personally apply these concepts to every activity I do, not just martial arts and meditation.
On the other hand, if you want to go deeply into the religious beliefs of Daoism, you should be careful that the person who teaches you is a sensible person and not a lunatic, of which there are many. There is also huge wisdom in the more devotional aspects of Daoism, as well as Confucianism, Buddhism, and many other types of Chinese culture. On a personal note, studying these things has allowed me to make huge progress in my personal life, become much more peaceful, happy, and judge other people less than before. :) :) :) :)
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:58 pm

The "internal" arts are esoteric by definition. It's a very small club in the cmas that has only gotten relatively large since it was no longer transmitted directly from teacher to student, often only among family members.

Imo, it won't necessarily help to know five element theory or to explain Taoist metaphysics in order to learn or practice a martial art. However, their usefulness will eventually be up to the student. If somebody told me he needed to fight in a month, I wouldn't recommend reading one of SLT's studies on boxing. Otoh, for most people, learning a martial art is something that will last a lifetime. It won't hurt to read Laotzi or Suntzi.

Afa the Taoist magical stuff, that's also connected to traditional medicine and traditional martial rituals. We tend to have our view that magic, spirituality, medicine, religion, science, etc., are all separate categories. I'd bet that when cmas emerged from societies that didn't make, or need to make, those neat distinctions. And, yeah, that's why some religious westerners will not do yoga or taichi because they fear demons. Helas, il est juste comme ça.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby willie on Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:54 pm

this was good sound writing on everyone's part.

Robp2 when thinking of old masters, this more recent thought keeps coming to mind. who say's they were masters?
It seems that every Chinese guy on the net is a so called master.

Bao. But what is it that we are doing?

mixjourneyman. yes, grounded in reality, but aware of heavens energy.

Steve James. yup, couldn't have said it better.

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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby cloudz on Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:19 am

Well, it's the reason I am something of a tai chi loyalist.. If it were not for the spiritual aspect.. It's weird in a way, I guess I'm a loyal person and I feel like I owe a debt. I always will feel this way probably and I like to pay my debts. Some of the Chinese 'stuff' doesn't float my boat much (like the trigrams, I ching etc.). Philosophy, spirituality, esoteric things.. is a huge subject and it doesn't hurt to look in different directions either. But as someone mentioned once you feel you are doing something for life, there's less of a hurry; I figure if something is worth finding, you'll probably get to it and discover it at some point. Everyone has their pace and appetite for various things. Finding life balance is important.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:45 am

Iam not interesting about esoterism magic prractice but my question was if famous top master
Exept wx zhai and sunluntang were known for having link with daoism master or studing esoteric practic?

Thanks
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Tom on Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:40 am

AL2016 wrote:Iam not interesting about esoterism magic prractice but my question was if famous top master
Exept wx zhai and sunluntang were known for having link with daoism master or studing esoteric practic?

Thanks


I suppose it depends on what you mean by "having link with." I am not aware that either Wang Xiangzhai or Sun Lutang had a lineage disciple relationship with any Daoist teachers or formal initiation into any Daoist schools. Wang Xiangzhai did wander over quite a bit of China in his salad days and spent time with a "monk" Heng Lin in martial training. Who Heng Lin was and what tradition he was a "monk" in, not much is known about. Sun Lutang went to Emeishan and other places in western China with the encouragement of his baguazhang teacher Cheng Tinghua (who recognized Sun's scholarly inclinations) specifically to learn more about possible connections between Daoism and baguazhang. Sun studied the theory of the Yijing as well as neigong with Zhi Zhen at Emeishan in 1894. He studied the "arts of immortality" with Jing Xu at Wudangshan, remaining in the area for about two years. He returned to Baoding in 1896. Apparently, though, it really was not until after 1910, when Sun was in Beijing, that clear expressions of Daoist ideas appeared in his arts. All of the preceding is from this article: https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/14/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutangs-unified-theory-of-the-chinese-martial-arts-daoist-spirituality-health-and-boxing-part-iii/
Last edited by Tom on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby AL2016 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:34 pm

yes that s what i look for

example of great martial expert having studied spiritual path or esoterism sciences with a daoism master

for wx zhai introducing a daoism master its lijianyu one of his top level student for health that told me this in 2009 in beijing
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Fa Xing on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:17 pm

There was no Daoist and Chinese cosmology connection to Chinese martial arts, the internal martial arts specifically, prior to the end of the 19th century. Before that, nothing that I have read shows that connection. In fact, I think it was Sun Lutang who probably made the connection because he wanted some sort of literary connection to Chinese philosophy where there was a tenuous connection at best. This was, as stated before, a form of self-preservation for the martial arts in China during the Republican era because of the questioning of martial arts as useful during an era of ever-wider use of firearms. Also, connecting CMA with traditional Chinese medicine gave it the credibility to use CMA has a point to develop and spread Chinese physical culture in order to have that health basis that a number of people are trying to reverse the negative consequences that resulted.
Last edited by Fa Xing on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby Peacedog on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:40 pm

Wan Lai Sheng summed it up best when he said, "Ziranmen is an excellent basis for spiritual practice, but not a spiritual practice in and of itself."
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Re: neijia expert and esoterism

Postby mixjourneyman on Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:43 pm

Daoism isn't a particularly esoteric idea in China, it has very deep roots in Chinese culture, and virtually any and every piece of Chinese traditional culture can and has been defined in Daoist terms at one time or another. Things like Wuji, Taiji, The five elements, Bagua and so on are not exclusive to Daoism at all, they are part of the traditional Chinese world view. Now If Sun Lutang had said that his art invoked the spirit of Laozi to protect his followers while they smash the evil foreign ghosts, and that he is impervious to bullets, that would be esoteric.
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