Neijia in real fight

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:54 am

let's face it, everybody learns a mix of the three these days, but that the purest form of the art's expressions will generally follow that basic idea.


I don't know about "everybody" all of the people I've met felt they where very different expressions and did not mix them.
Historically this has been also true.

Zhang kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong - it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy. Hu said that there was nothing he could do because he had been practicing that way for so long. Zhang decided to teach Hu the 81-Step form of taijiquan, realizing that unless Hu was able to let go of his xingyi it would be quite difficult to teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.

http://www.aymta.org/?page_id=115

I would say that only those with a superficial knowledge of taiji would feel that they could or should be blended.
Others may find different.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby origami_itto on Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:08 am

windwalker wrote:
let's face it, everybody learns a mix of the three these days, but that the purest form of the art's expressions will generally follow that basic idea.


I don't know about "everybody" all of the people I've met felt they where very different expressions and did not mix them.
Historically this has been also true.


k, almost everybody... in the west

Zhang kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong - it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy. Hu said that there was nothing he could do because he had been practicing that way for so long. Zhang decided to teach Hu the 81-Step form of taijiquan, realizing that unless Hu was able to let go of his xingyi it would be quite difficult to teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.

http://www.aymta.org/?page_id=115

I would say that only those with a superficial knowledge of taiji would feel that they could or should be blended.
Others may find different.


If you learn all three, particularly if you learn them at the same time, you definitely get a muddied, blended sort of beast.

I don't know if it's possible to "switch modes" during a real fight, like Jet Li did in "the one" where he's using bagua to fight himself using xingyi. In the extra features of the DVD he explained that was a decision he made and worked into the script to help express the different natures of the characters. Him with Xingyi was an aggressive, destructive, power hungry character, him with bagua was a passive, loving, protector type.

In my experience, it's all intention, when the situation calls for a different intention, if I have something trained to satisfy that intention it will manifest, whether it's taiji, xingyi, bagua, bjj, or western MA.

So here's where the problems come in to play. If I only study taijiquan, then the answer to my opponent's question must by necessity come from my taijiquan. If I have sufficiently studied my taijiquan then I would have an answer from taijiquan, if I haven't, then I'm beaten. If I've studied another art, then I may rely on that art's answer to the question and never study my taijiquan at a depth sufficient to find taiji's answer.

If you want to study multiple arts, then you have to be clear about what you're working on in training and drills and limit you vocabulary of responses to fit the training. (That's why push hands shouldn't be a grappling match if you want to develop real taiji skills)

I guess it comes back to what are you studying, how and why?
Last edited by origami_itto on Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:52 pm

So here's where the problems come in to play. If I only study taijiquan, then the answer to my opponent's question must by necessity come from my taijiquan. If I have sufficiently studied my taijiquan then I would have an answer from taijiquan, if I haven't, then I'm beaten. If I've studied another art, then I may rely on that art's answer to the question and never study my taijiquan at a depth sufficient to find taiji's answer.


Because one studies taiji doesn’t mean they’ve reached a point where what they do can be said to be taiji...To study, practice, is very different then “knowing” The reason why there are so many questions about practices that people practice is because not many people get to a point where the practice reaches a level for intended usage.

Usually at this point, they, as many have try to fill in or substitute other practices to make up for their lack of depth or understanding in the their chosen practice. If one practices another art and studies taiji no matter what other art one studies it will remain so with taiji maybe adding some clarity to their practice that the art does not address. . It would never reach a point where one could say that “taiji” didn’t work now it's time to use “X” as a backup.
If one "knows" "x" art there should be no separation between what they do and the art.

I’ve worked with many who’ve studied with famous teachers telling me about their teacher “yes he taught taiji, but he really didn’t know taiji” In most cases they taught taiji as an adjunct to their primary practice often using their primary art to fill in for lack of taiji skill sets. Nothing wrong with this although it can cause confusion until a point is reached when one starts to question their practice and looks for a "taiji" teacher.


As you’ve mentioned it depends on what one's purpose is for a practice that necessitates the depth and level needed. If one wants to practice and know taiji, then practice until they know it.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:52 pm

REAL FIGHT it s not street fight i mean application a little bit speed not slow convinience application

like in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU

or this one found in an other post very good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU
Last edited by AL2016 on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby Rhen on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:33 am

Rhen

 

Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:21 am

AL2016 wrote:REAL FIGHT it s not street fight i mean application a little bit speed not slow convinience application

like in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU

or this one found in an other post very good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU


Ah, we have completely different definitions of "Real fight".

Generally, a "real fight" is a self defense situation. A fight with pads and gloves and a ref and rules is a sport fight.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:01 pm

YES Sorry iam french my english is poor

the right word is without convinience

chen ziqiang is very amazing it s first time i see taichi principle aplied without conviniance
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:04 pm

rhen yes your video show that all the style when is free lose his neijia principle

we often see yichuan or xing yi when fight freely it s like kick boxing or kyuko
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby Gus Mueller on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:16 pm

On peut bien ignorer M. Itto, Le Buffon Grand, Le Videur Imaginaire.
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:58 pm

Thanks
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:14 am

AL2016 wrote:REAL FIGHT it s not street fight i mean application a little bit speed not slow convinience application

like in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU

or this one found in an other post very good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLerDeML5VU



is hard blocking of kicks considered nei jia? seems more like shaolin? even MT? as for non compliance? please! no counter occurred until after the blocks and the assistant had stopped attacking and engaged in retreating, again without offering resistance / counters as he did. It's quite easy to perform big, wide, weird strikes on a dummy. The striking is piss-poor in fairness? like some spastic movement where he tries to perform the crawl swim stroke, the idea seems to be to over-whelm the opponent? But with what? the exact same type of downward slap each time? (Each time you strike an opponent you teach him! you know? unless he's a fukin dunce, and then you don't need martial arts, just a set of dumb-bells) and that monkey dance shit on return? Is that some sort of magic spell?
Is this an unfair assessment?

From my own limited experience, having lived in Ballymun in the 1990's (in the top 5 most violent estates in Europe) and more recently in Finglas-west (gangsta-land), and coached and trained in areas like "Oliver Bond" and "Marrowbone Lane" (the heart of crimeland) I've had the odd run in, in my teens having pole-spiked multi-coloured punk rock hairstyles ensured I was an "outlaw" that no cop would assist and every scumbag knew this too. (I still have knife scratches on my punk-rock leather jacket). Anyway, from that personal experience, that could make a decent novel, coupled with my international fight record in sanda and chinese wrestling, along with my coaching experience, all I can say is that punches are punches, kicks - kicks, and throws, well - throws.

Sure it's nice to kick someone over the bonnet of a car and simultaneously drop his pal with a well timed punch on the chin, but honestly, street encounters last seconds. And you always recall the absolute fear on the opponent s face on the street (something absent from professional fighters on the leitai). It's something primal... that look... "oh shit! I thought I was chasing a hare into a cave to discover it was a tiger".

When you hit them, as street-trained as they are, and ignorant of real martial skill, something deep down, a survival mechanism perhaps? , warns them, this ain't the usual saturday night "male ritual". (as another poster like to refer to it as) Dropping 3 lads within 10 seconds, and after, in perfect calmness suggesting they consider "what they would prefer to be doing on Saturday night?" spending it in a cell or in a club? sort of offers them the escape they desperately need, and sure as they "fuck off" they will cast a few insults (once a suitable range is generated for escape).

Now... in the ring / leitai against a pro (not a novice trying to ascertain if he has the stones to fight in the first place) you are fighting a lad who has trained like a demon for the past 3 months for this fight, on top of the years of serious training for other fights and competitions over the years. his whole universe is on the line. He'll fight like you've broken into his house. (some will even use "dirty tricks", you know the eye-gouging and suffocation the RSBD lads glorify but haven't the basic skills in timing, range and angle to pull off.)

Sure there's a ref, like a by-stander he might step in if shit gets real ugly.
Sure there's rounds, rounds that last 8-12 times linger than a "real fight".
Sure there's rules, there needs to be, because the power pro fighters can deliver is 10 times that of mere mortals, the perfection of timing, angle, range, leverage, targeting, ensures that, unlike the untrained, every blow or throw can be a show stopper.
Sure, there's no hail-mary-hay-makers, no stupid gaps, no issuing without adequate defense, no repetition of the same tired strike, combos baby! combos offensive or to counter or all mixed up.... combos of kicks, punches and throws that would bewilder and leave most CMA "masters" in a heap or in the morgue!

See, the thing is, on the street when you get floored, often after a few more token kicks the encounter is over, in a pro fight you are required to stand up again and re commence. (It's like having 8-12 "real fights" with the same lad who ain't pissed but at peak performance) During the encounter, inside the uninterrupted parts of the bout you are in various positions and within the opponents attempt at combos, real combos, not successive hail-mary-hay-makers... in other words you're having to deal with the most expert and continuous barrage of martial technique, technique without holding back, technique seeking to finish you, technique designed to be confusing and unreadable... feints, draws, rhythms... you name it, all the high-level shit the inexperienced haven't put the time into and so haven't a hope of pulling off. we are talking stuff they have never experienced , something totally beyond their universe of understanding. (its why its both so funny and sad to read their opinion on skillfulness... they're simply blind, like they say, they wouldn't recognize it if it slapped them in the face... literally! how sad?)

I've said it before... every fighter was once not a fighter, and while they trained before experience they all had their own fallacies about it. Every fighter recognizes this part of his learning curve. So when we hear non-fighters spout shit about deadly-no-rules martial arts that are not properly tested nor trained, we see clearly the bullshit.

Funny thing is, with all the thousands of modern fighters in sanda, mma, muay thai etc... not a single one, of even reasonable accomplishment, has ever suggested that complete knowledge and skill in martial arts can be derived from non-resistant, compliant training. Certainly there are compliant drills, and some fighters fight so often that they do not engage in heavy sparring to avoid injuries that may effect their livelyhoods. (but they fight, and know the difference).

I've asked for years here, off those who shun combat sports as a way to gain relevant skill, to provide two clips to settle the matter, the first to demonstrate their preferred non-resistant training method and the second to show how the skill it trains is used in a full contact competition. Surely if combat sports are "less skillful" it stands to reason that they should have no problem entering such a test? They don't have to win even, I can accept we all have good and bad days, still over the "vastness" of a round or two, surely there is opportunity?

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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:04 am

do you have any video about bagua zhang in real application where we can see the bagua s principle?
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby wiesiek on Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:55 am

AL,
U may see it in any fight, where counter is done by steppin` a side, flankin` and answering accordingly to the powers vectors , :)
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby AL2016 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:59 am

Ok dont really understand your sentence iam french not native
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Re: Neijia in real fight

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:25 am

AL2016 wrote:Ok dont really understand your sentence iam french not native


Pas probleme, he is Polish. Both of you are communicating in your second or third language. Felicitations.

AL,
U may see it in any fight, where counter is done by steppin` a side, flankin` and answering accordingly to the powers vectors


I think he means that it is possible to see in any fight where the strategy is to step to the side and respond depending on the direction of the incoming force.
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