Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:34 pm

I appreciate John's mention of flavour as I already covered with tcc "seven star guard" theory and in fight footage.

I do not dispute this... however I do require some evidence for extraordinary claims of a completely different approach. Is that so much to ask?
Expecting me to accept empty verbilage is asking too much.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:41 pm

Everyone involved in the last part of this debate has produced footage save the person making extraordinary claims! That says it all.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:20 pm

How are these extraordinary claims? Suggesting that the hand techniques of, say, Taijiquan don't look like Sanda?? I just gave you a big list of techniques that any Taiji practitioner should be familiar with.. Find one that looks like Sanda.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:28 pm

John just gave the exact type of example that I am talking about. Now throw in two or three more and it's starting to look like TCMA sparring.

My master taught me something very similar to this, but with the arms straighter. John, have you got any videos like this of the Zombie Arms and Double Spears, where the other person is also throwing punches?

EDIT: I found your Double Spear Hand video. This looks like what we call Dapeng Zhanchi (but also a little bit like Xilianshou - the video is too short) and is one of my core techniques that I use all the time. I have footage of me using it against a boxer in a light-contact bout, if anyone adds me on WeChat.

I do have some videos, but I told you to add me on WeChat, as I can't upload to Youtube from China, and you didn't. I can barely upload photos to Flickr. Don't expect too much, though. And right now I'm just teaching one student and could use him to demonstrate, but who will film it?? Or should I use my wife to demonstrate?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Subitai on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:34 pm

As usual the late 90's called and wants it's discussion back...it eventually comes down to people saying "it doesn't LOOK the way it's supposed to".

CMA shouldn't look like anything except what ever works. I blame Kung Fu movies for this perception.

Fighting can often be abrupt and chaotic as much as controlled and orderly... i.e. more akin to sparring. Nobody should be trying to look like anything in particular except for what ever or however the opponent presents himself.

If I'm a Wing Chun guy and I like to bridge and play chi sao drills allot and my opponent spends all his time faking upper-body (keeping his distance) and shooting take downs and low outside ankle picks...he will have effectively negated nearly any chance of ME looking like I do Movie Wing Chun. It's just a fact get over it.

I don't go into sparring or fighting thinking I'm going to look like CMA...Nobody should. I go into it thinking I will respond to THIS PARTICULAR fighter for THIS given moment and it's completely subjective to how we react to each other.

If my opponent is UNORTHODOX and leaves me little opportunity to look TMA / CMA ...then so be it, I just have to set him up. It may take a few seconds or it may take a couple minutes but either way the process of figuring out your opponent is also part of the game.

TMA applied in mma can be found in video easily if you take it as Snippets or Small Bits of application. I said this already but if you see a guy throw a front jump double kick (hit his opponent in the chin) and win by knock out...then you've seen TMA in action.
Being flexible to alter your skill and set up your opponent is hard thing to master because everyone is different. You can't control what another person will do but sometimes you CAN CONTROL WHAT YOU WILL NOT DO. For example, hitting a closed gate is a pet peeve of mine:
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:58 pm

Subitai wrote:If I'm a Wing Chun guy and I like to bridge and play chi sao drills allot and my opponent spends all his time faking upper-body (keeping his distance) and shooting take downs and low outside ankle picks...he will have effectively negated nearly any chance of ME looking like I do Movie Wing Chun. It's just a fact get over it.

If your opponent jumps around to avoid contact,

- if you also jump around like your opponent does, you are fighting the way that your opponent wants you to fight.
- if you stay in low stance with strong defense, move in inch by inch, and try to establish that initial contact, you are fighting the TCMA way.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Subitai on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:03 pm

johnwang wrote:
Subitai wrote:If I'm a Wing Chun guy and I like to bridge and play chi sao drills allot and my opponent spends all his time faking upper-body (keeping his distance) and shooting take downs and low outside ankle picks...he will have effectively negated nearly any chance of ME looking like I do Movie Wing Chun. It's just a fact get over it.

If your opponent jumps around to avoid contact,

- if you also jump around like your opponent does, you are fighting the way that your opponent wants you to fight.
- if you stay in low stance with strong defense, move in inch by inch, and try to establish that initial contact, you are fighting the TCMA way.


Exactly John...you just described (your take on) being able to adjust to whatever your opponent does, yet I see you're not concerned with how it looks, only how effective you are. Smart!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:50 am

Evasion again...

Look pal you took it upon yourself to piss on others proven ability in combat and call it sloppy and not traditional...

So far you've been asked for a single example of TCMA sparring or in competition (with minimal rules) and not a fucking drill ... where patsys play their part.

We are not asking you to demonstrate yourself!

With nearly 100 years of videos of cma and a whole internet out there... surely to fuck there's one example?

If not, why not???

(Johns video above is interesting, but it ain't a fight, it's it's one sided drill, a lad feeding attacks (standard boxing attacks like in sanda) and one lad "practicing" the use of the guard for such attacks. There's no mixing I.e. no kicks, no throws not much angle changes in the attack... but thats perfectly ok because its a drill not a fight.)

Now let's get real, cause im getting a real pain in the hole repeating myself?

If you don't have material to hand admit it. And graciously climb down from the pulpet, pontificating to experienced TCMA people about how to fight!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:34 am

Duplicate..
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:52 am

See...
I've fought 87 sanda international's
Over 150 Chinese westling bouts

Coaches a dozen or so lads to become interntional champs so I've been in their corner hundreds of times.

I'm an executive member of the national governing body here for cma . we've held comps 4-6 times annually since 2009

I've been top table or reffed them all... thousands of fights..

Over all witnsssed well over 100 traditional Chinese gung fu schools fight....

And never, not once have I seen something completely different as you suggest.

Why?

Bad luck?

If the unicorn only exists in your school then it ain't traditional CMA it's your Sifu's particular style. the traditional lads from white crane to tai chi all fight "like sanda"... well... to those blind to subtlity.

The question remains do people fight "like sanda" because it's natural and works? As I don't know anyone who "acts" when fighting outside of Shaw brothers drunken style masters or the likes.
This then begs the obvious... the stuff that deviates ( in your own words "worlds apart" from mma, sanda kickboxing etc.if it hasnt been tested does it only enjoy the luxury of looking so different because of its "wrapped in cotton wool" fantasy?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:56 am

I'm not calling into question your fighting or your students' fighting abilities. That much is evident. Nor am I saying that a Baguazhang fighter should circle walk the whole match to look like the style. I am merely stating that I see no TCMA hand techniques in the videos you posted. I see plenty of throws. They look good. If you said that you did Sanda and Shuaijiao I'd be all for it.

I'm sorry that I don't have any videos except for some short clips on WeChat. I never competed, just sparred a lot. Why did you disregard my detailed explanation about what I'd expect to see from a TCMA fighter?? What John Wang showed is absolutely TCMA and works in fighting. That's the type of thing I'm talking about. Not boxing with boxing punches and boxing guards and boxing combinations.

And TCMA looks nothing like Shaw Brothers films.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:06 am

There is a massive difference between using a traditional technique in fighting (my lads do it all the time, the kick scoops in the vid are brush knee twist step) and looking "worlds apart"!

There is a traditional CMA saying: "once a have fists we need nothing else"... meaning chin na can be applied with forearms and elaborate hand techniques are unnecessary.

So the old "gloves" argument doesn't really hold water.

Guards look similar across many cultures... we have the same knock out points to protect!
Combos exist in every martial art likewise.

Where I've seen fighters adopt the "unusual" ... once a lad holding his arms at his sides and slightly out standing sideon and so one hand is forward the other back (doing fuck all)... well he woke up in a beijing hospital with 16 stitches in his face from less than 30 seconds of sanda.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:09 am

Again, respectfully, what John posted was a drill not sparring not competing not fighting!

You're using your imagination to see other than that.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby GrahamB on Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:29 am

It's true - the hand techniques of Tai Chi don't look like Sanda:

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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby GrahamB on Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:31 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I'm not calling into question your fighting or your students' fighting abilities. That much is evident. Nor am I saying that a Baguazhang fighter should circle walk the whole match to look like the style. I am merely stating that I see no TCMA hand techniques in the videos you posted. I see plenty of throws. They look good. If you said that you did Sanda and Shuaijiao I'd be all for it.

I'm sorry that I don't have any videos except for some short clips on WeChat. I never competed, just sparred a lot. Why did you disregard my detailed explanation about what I'd expect to see from a TCMA fighter?? What John Wang showed is absolutely TCMA and works in fighting. That's the type of thing I'm talking about. Not boxing with boxing punches and boxing guards and boxing combinations.

And TCMA looks nothing like Shaw Brothers films.


Maarten - I'm pretty sure I've seen a video of you sparring on RSF - wasn't it for some Chinese television programme you were in?
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