這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby phil b on Thu May 11, 2017 1:12 am

Ian wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:There are numerous viral clips in which he repeatedly insults Taiji practitioners and TCMAists using the f-word (while making references to their moms and the female genitalia ;) ).


But what's wrong with disrespecting Chen Xiaowang et al? They scam their own students.


The main reason Xu has gotten such a bad rep in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan is his insolence and trash talk.


Plenty of Chinese love this guy as well - he says what people think, embarasses 'masters' in public, and these 'masters' are powerless to respond.

There's no downside to this.


Agreed! The only people upset by this are the ones who fear that people will no longer buy into their B.S.

Taiji is rife with these fraudsters, weeding a few out is no bad thing. Look at the nonsense in the video links, people pay money for that! There is good Taiji out there, so why do people want to defend this cancerous nonsense?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 1:40 am

C.J.W. wrote:The main reason Xu has gotten such a bad rep in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan is his insolence and trash talk. There are numerous viral clips in which he repeatedly insults Taiji practitioners and TCMAists using the f-word (while making references to their moms and the female genitalia ;) ). In one particular instance that was captured on video, he openly challenges a TCMA teacher and his student, inviting them to step into the ring and begging them to f**** him up and knock him dead because he was "desperate for an ass-whupping." 

IMO, if he had gone about this whole crusade against fraud in a more civilized manner, he would've been taken more seriously rather than becoming public enemy number one.






If that stuff is true that puts a slightly different light on things. Honestly I can't be asked to follow all this too closely myself, so I appreciate what you and others post about what's going on.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 1:52 am

Ian wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:There are numerous viral clips in which he repeatedly insults Taiji practitioners and TCMAists using the f-word (while making references to their moms and the female genitalia ;) ).


But what's wrong with disrespecting Chen Xiaowang et al? They scam their own students.




I think on the whole the Chen village organization offers a bit of something for most people. Do you think Chen Zhiqiang deserves to be disrespected. personally i think people minding their own business should be left alone. Sure if they make public claims directly about fighting, MMA or whatever then there's nothing wrong with asking people to back it up. I think there's a line, if you're just abusing TCMA people only for the reason you don't see them spar or fight I think that's uncalled for, unecessary and makes you a douche. That doesn't include legit critique of what they do. People making and accepting challenges is fine too but purely on them in the end.

If as a whole the Chen school under his banner supports taiji grappling and sanda - which from what i can tell they are good with it - then I don't know why the big deal. Even if they didn't, if they go about it respectfully no one should have any problem with it. He's obviously jealous of their success on some level and feel it unwarranted but there's a huge market for it. Not everyone wants the full sports experience so some levels of participation are a reasonable compromise. Zhabao schools I've seen have that for example, Quite a few Chen teachers are similar, so I think targeting and going after some individual you don't think conforms to some standard is a little mean spirited and petty.

It would be different if CXW had done something to warrant the attention, but what? I don't know ???
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 2:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 2:24 am

johnwang wrote:Xu Xiaodong only challenges Taiji guys. He still shows respect to TCMA styles such as:

- Da Chen Chuan,
- Tong Bei,
- Baji,
- WC.

IMO, only a 100% Taiji guy's challenge (with no cross training) will be able to end this discussion. Any other challenge will not be able to save the Taiji reputation.


This is all a cluster fuck really isn't it.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Thu May 11, 2017 5:46 am

cloudz wrote: Sure if they make public claims directly about fighting, MMA or whatever then there's nothing wrong with asking people to back it up.


That's exactly what Chen village does, though.

And they charge a small fortune for you to train with them.

And now they're "just for health". It's very confusing! :D
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 5:58 am

Ian wrote:
cloudz wrote: Sure if they make public claims directly about fighting, MMA or whatever then there's nothing wrong with asking people to back it up.


That's exactly what Chen village does, though.

And they charge a small fortune for you to train with them.

And now they're "just for health". It's very confusing! :D



When they had that event with MT, they openly used Sanda training.
So clearly when it comes to fighting, that's their response.
Doesn't seem like a big secret to me.

If others - whoever they are - can't accept taiji people or any other TCMA evolving their training, then sorry it's a crock of shit to me.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu May 11, 2017 6:13 am

Oh, there are endless stories of fraud, betrayal, rip-off, bullying, threatening, beating up aso. in the village, since many years.
Latest was the strongman coming out, telling that his shoving match with CXW was faked all along, like CZQ's fights with his own students, the Wang's encounter with the rugby guy...
It is high time, that someone did call them out.
Of course, Xu got no manners, but that can't be expected from those guys and their educational background.
It is a real mess, and in TW, we have Lingkongjin masters in huge supply as well. Want any?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Fatal Rose on Thu May 11, 2017 7:03 am

His website is gone, his Weibo is deleted, can't find any info on him via Baidu. Seems they made him disappear. Sad.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Steve James on Thu May 11, 2017 7:28 am

Ime, the Chen issue is specific to Chen style, and shouldn't be considered with all the other complaints about tcc and/or tcma. Chen style came into the marketplace claiming that it was the real tcc specifically because of things like fa jing that made it obviously more martial than --specifically-- CMC derived styles. Chen style proponents were not unique in their criticisms of other tcc styles. The only people who didn't criticize tcc in general were those who ignored it (like a pimple on an elephant's ass). C'mon, it's even been true on RSF.

Anyway, it gets more complicated. In my personal experience, I knew of several Wu (Wujianquan) schools and CMC schools which had students who competed regularly, just in NYC. I didn't know one Chen style school that did so. Iirc, there were two here, Ren Guanyi's and, later, Joseph Chen. Don't ask me if they competed; I don't know. By then it was the 90s, and there was a lot of debate about the effectiveness of this or that. And, what do you know, Chen Village was holding a tournament. Well known long story short, a CMC guy won his division. Mama mia.

Did the shiite talk stop then? Nope. It turned to assertions of things that could not be seen or proven in competition. Emphasis on "internal strength" or "neijin" occurred simultaneously with the introduction of bjj. The UFC showed a style beating every single type of challenger. Still, on the discussion boards, tcc was the weak man of the martial arts-- as if xingyi, bagua, wing chun, etc., were just dominating the mma world. Rather, the traditional mas (internal and external) scoffed at ground fighting. Shucks, ain't we still waiting for xingyi or bagua guy in the UFC? When that happens, then they will have the authority to put down tcc afa fighting. Sure, you may be able to whup a tcc guy. Pick a worthy adversary; then talk.

But, I totally agree that anyone who tries to sell people some special power that will enable them to fight should be exposed as a fraud. Otoh, I don't think that the Chen family has done that. I think that comes from other styles. I think it's totally fair and practical of them to incorporate sanda, and it's unfair and impractical to require they restrict their movements to their form. One could do that for every tcma from shuai jiao to wing chun. Imo, that's confusing the martial with the art.

If someone is using the practice to improve or maintain his or her health, leave him alone.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Thu May 11, 2017 7:33 am

Of course, Xu got no manners, but that can't be expected from those guys and their educational background.


Does this mean the ones with an "educational" back ground can feel perfectly free about encouraging those that they say are with out
to do what they won't do.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 7:47 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:Oh, there are endless stories of fraud, betrayal, rip-off, bullying, threatening, beating up aso. in the village, since many years.
Latest was the strongman coming out, telling that his shoving match with CXW was faked all along, like CZQ's fights with his own students, the Wang's encounter with the rugby guy...
It is high time, that someone did call them out.
Of course, Xu got no manners, but that can't be expected from those guys and their educational background.
It is a real mess, and in TW, we have Lingkongjin masters in huge supply as well. Want any?


Send them over, I would love to meet them. Ziqiang was in London the other day coincidentally, someone I know posted his photo on FB.
Funny he didn't look too happy in that photo.
Honestly I don't get too into Chen politics or the style, so I'm not up on those things you mention too much if at all..
There's been a lot of video of him, I don't think anyone can claim it's all faked, surely. His students? maybe, who knows.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 8:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Greg J on Thu May 11, 2017 8:06 am

At 7:55 the interviewer asks "Does this exchange prove that Taijiquan does not have any fighting ability?" Xu answers, "No it does not prove that." He then goes on to say it proves that Lei had no fighting skills.

The interview is interesting, and covers a lot of territory. There is clearly self-promotion going on, but also quite a bit of what appear to be reasonable statements about the business of martial arts in China. I can't say what is true and what is speculation, but it all seems plausible and (given the tendency for money to corrupt sports - see the Olympic Committee, FIFA, etc) probable.

Too bad about the trash talk.

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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Thu May 11, 2017 10:28 am

Steve James wrote:But, I totally agree that anyone who tries to sell people some special power that will enable them to fight should be exposed as a fraud. Otoh, I don't think that the Chen family has done that. I think that comes from other styles. I think it's totally fair and practical of them to incorporate sanda, and it's unfair and impractical to require they restrict their movements to their form. One could do that for every tcma from shuai jiao to wing chun. Imo, that's confusing the martial with the art.

How to use Taiji only (without mixing any other CMA systems) to become a good Taiji fighter? Is it possible? IMO, it's possible. Taiji has all the basic striking tools. It can be an effective striking system if train properly. Does Taiji has all the wrestling tools? May be not. But you don't have to learn 300 throws to be a wrestler. If you can master "cloud hand - body control", you can use it to defeat your opponent over and over.

IMO, the issue is the students. Taiji attracts a special kind of students. When those students become teachers, they attract a special kind of students again. If you don't have any students who are willing to test the Taiji skill that you taught them to deal with people from other MA systems, it will be very difficult to develop reputation for your Taiji system as a fighting art.

Many years ago when I started a Taiji class in North Austin Community College. During the first day, I introduced Taiji basic stances such as:

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- twisting step stance,
- 7 star stance,
- 40-60 stance,
- ...

During the basic stances introduction, one student stoop up and said, "This is not Taiji." He then left and I have never seen him since then. Even today, I still don't know why he left. When you learn ball room dancing, you start from box step, fox step, Cha Cha step, ... When you learn Taiji, you start from horse stance, bow-arrow stance, striking tiger stance, ...

What did that Taiji student expected from his 1st day of Taiji lesson? LKJ? That Taiji student is the "special kind of student" that I'm talking about.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu May 11, 2017 10:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Thu May 11, 2017 10:48 am

There also aren't objective standards. Some arts are Olympic sports with worldwide participation, referee standards, rule evolution, etc.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Steve James on Thu May 11, 2017 1:14 pm

So, you do stances and some will say this is not taichi. Some will spar and others will say that is not taichi.

All anyone has to do is compete if he wants to. He will adjust his practice to fit his goals, whatever style he practices.

Are there shuaijiao practitioners in mma? Do they just do shuijiao or do they strike and kick and grapple?
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