這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 27, 2017 10:49 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Obviously none of you lot talking about a lack of a competition record have never lived/trained in China and aren't in the right circles or you would cease with your ignorance. Even now, China is quite a lawless place and there are lots of people that have fought from a young age, usually on the street. The best I've met have all fought on the street at one point and have the scars to prove it. You've also not experienced just how dark this society can be.

Steve James wrote:Btw, I doubt think the underground fight scene in China is any tougher than in the Bronx, Paris, Rio, or Moscow (?).

A lot of MMA and Boxers came up from dangerous neighborhoods. Floyd Mayweather Sr and others have been shot and have the scars to prove it, too.

In hand to hand combat, I doubt a street thug or underground bad a** would defeat a well trained ranked fighter. The trained fighter may have hundreds of fights against other trained fighters. They prepare for fights full time.

In the streets, just as a thug can carry a weapon to the fight, a MMA or boxer can carry a gun. MMA and boxers can kick to the balls or gouge eyes just the same, and with more speed, power and accuracy. An MMA or boxer can ambush, gang up, and bring an unfair weapon against an unarmed thug, just as well.

windwalker wrote:It seems that some really don't understand what's going on. He was shut down for his own safety. Really not much more to say on this. Interesting to note
that those that have lived there, trained there share a common assessment of what's going on and those who haven't do not.

Maybe you are the one that doesn't understand, is too gullible or trying to spread the same China propaganda. There are many people in China that are intelligent enough to understand there are multiple reasons he was shut down (e.g., loss of face, business, etc.).
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat May 27, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby bartekb on Sat May 27, 2017 11:04 am

Interesting to note that those that have lived there, trained there share a common assessment of what's going on and those who haven't do not.

There were people on this forum that still live and train "there" - for the last 15 to 20 years - that dont post on this forum anymore exactly because they dont share this shared "assesment" you seem to have.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sat May 27, 2017 11:43 am

Again, we are talking about 100% Taiji fighter with no cross training here. We are not talking about

- street fighter,
- long fist fighter,
- Baji fighter,
- ...

If you have tested your skill against

- A and defeat him, A will know you.
- B and defeat him, B will know you too.
- ...

If you are a good "top Taiji fighter", there is no way that you can be "less public".

If Taiji is your only system, how to become a Taiji fighter? To me, that's more interest for deeper level discussion. You will need

- entering strategy that you can move into your opponent safely.
- finish strategy that you can knock/take down your opponent quickly.

One valuable lessen that I have learned was

You should always

1. attack first - you will have less dependency.
2. apply the same "entering strategy" and move in the same way - you will accumulate your experience through your life time.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 27, 2017 11:58 am

bartekb wrote:
Interesting to note that those that have lived there, trained there share a common assessment of what's going on and those who haven't do not.

There were people on this forum that still live and train "there" - for the last 15 to 20 years - that dont post on this forum anymore exactly because they dont share this shared "assesment" you seem to have.


I could say the same thing what is this supposed to mean?

Why is it that those that some people agree with seem to have valid experiences, and those that some do not agree witt get labeled as fairy tales are exaggerations..

Is it not possible for people to have different experiences and understanding.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Trick on Sat May 27, 2017 12:17 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Obviously none of you lot talking about a lack of a competition record have never lived/trained in China and aren't in the right circles or you would cease with your ignorance. Even now, China is quite a lawless place and there are lots of people that have fought from a young age, usually on the street. The best I've met have all fought on the street at one point and have the scars to prove it. You've also not experienced just how dark this society can be and why people wouldn't want to go public. You really have no fucking clue. Even many foreigners that have lived in China for years and years have no fucking clue. Especially as a foreigner you have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and understand Chinese to get a good glimpse of the underbelly of society. Just living a normal expat life you'd think that all was peachy. And for you it would be. You can leave and go back home any time you want. They can't.

I have lived ten years in Dalian and to a big extent the 'usually' expat life, but seen and to a certain extent associate with 'black people' (members of organised crime groups)there. My TJQ/Tongbei teacher in his younger days use to run a 'protection service business' and many of his students has followed the same way, his teacher was the kingpin of organised crime in the region. Through this i have many Gong Fu brothers in these circles, almost non of them have fight records in for example boxing or sanda and such, but fight they can.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby bartekb on Sat May 27, 2017 12:24 pm

windwalker wrote:and those that some do not agree witt get labeled as fairy tales are exaggerations...

Niall Keane produced proof his "mere sanda" taichi can be used in fighting competitions by his studens - competently as a martial art

the fact we have seen in this topic video of taichi used on space station but no video of any famous chinese master using it in a competitive fight (apart from beeing mauled like a 5 yo kid) is just sad.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 27, 2017 12:43 pm

Trick wrote:I have lived ten years in Dalian and to a big extent the 'usually' expat life, but seen and to a certain extent associate with 'black people' (members of organised crime groups)there. My TJQ/Tongbei teacher in his younger days use to run a 'protection service business' and many of his students has followed the same way, his teacher was the kingpin of organised crime in the region. Through this i have many Gong Fu brothers in these circles, almost non of them have fight records in for example boxing or sanda and such, but fight they can.

Somewhat off topic. An interview with Michael Chan Wai-man. I respect his experience and enjoy watching Michael's movies.

Excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chan_(actor):
Michael Chan Wai-man (Chinese: 陳惠敏; born 10 July 1946) is a Hong Kong actor. A Hakka of Wuhua ancestry born in New Territories, Chan was well known for various triad roles, when in actuality he had been involved with triads in real life.[1] In a media interview, he admitted to have been the No. 2 the 14K Triad that dominated vice in Tsim Sha Tsui before the handover of Hong Kong. Having worked as a police officer in the prison system, he came into contact with many underworld figures and joined the Triads. Chan was expelled from the police force as a result of his links.[1]

A little-known fact that also happens to be a huge part of his life was that he was a well-established kickboxing and boxing champion in southeast Asia. As a martial arts fanatic, Chan studied a multitude of fighting styles, which included Muay Thai, northern and southern Chinese kung fu and boxing.

Chan had a huge influence from Bruce Lee in his training methods and fighting, where they happened to be really good friends.

Published on Apr 13, 2016
Finally, the explosive interview with legendary Triad, boxer and film star Michael Chan Wai-Man has been translated to English. For those who want a clearer picture and understanding of what life was like in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s Hong Kong. Then imagine Bruce Lee during the last few years of his life...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWb82aaOaM
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sat May 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Trick wrote: i have many Gong Fu brothers in these circles, almost non of them have fight records in for example boxing or sanda and such, but fight they can.

The tournament fight can give you a chance to meet people from other area so you don't have to test your MA skill with your training partner or local people only.

In my last SC tournament, I met a guy who worked on carpet. His friend told me that he could lift up a full role carpet and put on his shoulder. His arms was so big that there was no sleeve space between his arm and his SC jacket. If I didn't compete in tournament, I won't be able to meet some one that strong (he weight 230 lb). One of my students could lift up a V8 car engine. But his weight was only 170 lb.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Ok John you are using sport fighting of proof
Put up a clip of your student lifting a v8 engine or something of similar weight
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sat May 27, 2017 1:32 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Ok John you are using sport fighting of proof
Put up a clip of your student lifting a v8 engine or something of similar weight

Wrestling is "sport". Don't have any clip for that.

His name is Jim Anderson. He is one of my IBM lunch time training partners. I might be able to dig out a tournament clip that he lifted up a 200 lb guy over his head. He is the guy when I wrestled with him, I broke my left ankle. My teacher loved to bring him back to Taiwan and gave people in Taiwan a lot of trouble.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby bartekb on Sat May 27, 2017 1:40 pm

almost non of them have fight records in for example boxing or sanda and such, but fight they can.

I will give you 2 examples from my home town of things that happened in the last 2 years, you'll have to use a translator as the news are in polish:

One of the guys I knew back when I did TKD when I was a teenager later became a kickboxer and then bjj and MMA competitor and coach
http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/artykul/ ... ,id,t.html
In 2015 he tried to retrieve some money from a guy and got hacked in the head with an axe - spend quite a long time in coma, now is back and teaching

http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/artykul/ ... ,id,t.html
In 2015 A bouncer in city centre gogo club killed a man with one blow - theres actually a movie where you can see it - most likely due to guys head hitting the ground)

now the above doesnt mean the MMA coach is worse fighter than the bouncer, it doesnt even mean he was worst fighter than the guy that hacked him,
it basically means that those alterations are extremally random and based on so many variables that shouldnt be used to draw any quick conclusion of them

bouncing, debt collecting and so on depends on who has more numbers, who has better weapons and who understands local connections better. There are people that had very limited or no exposure to martial arts and excell in the above.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 27, 2017 1:55 pm

johnwang wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Ok John you are using sport fighting of proof
Put up a clip of your student lifting a v8 engine or something of similar weight

Wrestling is "sport". Don't have any clip for that.

His name is Jim Anderson. He is one of my IBM lunch time training partners. I might be able to dig out a tournament clip that he lifted up a 200 lb guy over his head. He is the guy when I wrestled with him, I broke my left ankle. My teacher loved to bring him back to Taiwan and gave people in Taiwan a lot of trouble.



I have lifted plenty of big guys and speared the into the ground before they banned the spear tackle in rugby league
That's coordination and momentum
I am talking about him lifting a V 8
That's a whole different matter
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat May 27, 2017 2:14 pm

1) The people that want to shut Xu down aren't fighters. They are armchair martial artists at the top of the Chinese Wushu Association. The real fighters don't give a fuck and continue to do their thing.

2) My reason for pointing out that most of these fighters in China got their experience on the street is that in China people don't want to be famous because of things that happened in the recent past, not that they are more bad arse. Still, if Chinese people have been using their arts to successfully defend themselves in these places without rules, isn't that what they were designed for in the first place??? Were they designed for competition? I think not.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby C.J.W. on Sat May 27, 2017 6:13 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:1) The people that want to shut Xu down aren't fighters. They are armchair martial artists at the top of the Chinese Wushu Association. The real fighters don't give a fuck and continue to do their thing.

2) My reason for pointing out that most of these fighters in China got their experience on the street is that in China people don't want to be famous because of things that happened in the recent past, not that they are more bad arse. Still, if Chinese people have been using their arts to successfully defend themselves in these places without rules, isn't that what they were designed for in the first place??? Were they designed for competition? I think not.


Very true.

People who can really fight using CMA are almost always the ones who choose to remain underground and hidden away from the public eye. The reason is simple: fighting for real and causing people serious bodily harm are, well, illegal! The essence of CMA has always been about survival.

When fighting becomes bound by rules, then whoever trains specifically in the format dictated by those rules will always prevail -- hence the dominance of sport fighters over TCMAists in the ring.

Years ago I showed video footage of some of the early UFC fights to the gang enforcer I wrote about earlier, and asked him how he'd deal with a well-conditioned MMA athlete in a real fight. He simply laughed and said, "A big muscular guy like him? I'd just calm him down first and offer to buy him a drink. Then I'd stab him from behind with my shiv when his guard's down." ;)
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sat May 27, 2017 9:15 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:1) The people that want to shut Xu down aren't fighters. They are armchair martial artists at the top of the Chinese Wushu Association.


+1

It's silly to claim that Xu has been exposed to The Real CMA, and that's why he has changed his tune.

Anyone who says this, really doesn't understand China.






Still, if Chinese people have been using their arts to successfully defend themselves in these places without rules, isn't that what they were designed for in the first place??? Were they designed for competition? I think not.


Wikipedia:
"The lei tai first appeared during the Song dynasty when it was used for boxing and Shuai Jiao exhibition matches and private duels.[1] According to the Chinese Kuoshu Institute (UK), an ancestor of the lei tai was used during the Qin dynasty to hold Jiao Li wrestling competitions between imperial soldiers. The winner would be chosen to act as a bodyguard to the emperor or a martial arts instructor for the Imperial Military.[2]"

Just saying.
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