Burning palm

[suckinlhbf]

Thanks, Mike. The "needle in cotton" movements and dimension seems to be differ from the other fists of White Crane. I heard it was developed by the founder, Ng Siu Chung to focus on cultivating internal strength. For sure power from burning palm can be applied into it.

Well say "Skillful means". I have trained for years and is still trying to formulate a path to help getting a more direct access to gain internal strength. Still experiencing it but seems little results. I started to teach my kid when she was 3 years old by telling her nothing other than played with her to hit me hard. After each hit, I would told her how to adjust the movement to make me hurt more. Once, I poked her belly, and she felt the hit stay inside the body for a while. She started to mimic to get the power go deeper and deeper. She gets it from years of punching me. But, can't do it with others. I can't survive.

[KEND]

Hi Mike good to see some of the old timers are still around. Thanks for the info, when I visited the studio I found George Long to be very friendly and realized, watching him teach the class, that he had a high level of skill. I also visited Brendan Lai, YC Wong and Kuo Lien who were also friendly, quite a change from the East Coast. I subsequently wrote a short article on George Long for Paul Crompton's MA magazine in the UK. There were very few books on CMA in those days, I have a copy of your first book, I also remember Bucksam Wong's book around that time. My Shaolin teacher Alan Lee's teacher was of the same school as Ku so AL taught, and still does teach extensive hand conditioning and breaking

[windwalker]

Interesting Ken,
would you have a link to your article.

Ng-Siu-Chung taught three prominent students who became key figures in the migration of white crane kung-fu to the U.S.: CheukTiang-Tse, in Hawaii; Chan-Hoc-Fu, whose student, George Long, was the first person to open his kwoon (Chinese school) to non Orientals in San Francisco; and Lak-Chi-Fu, whose student, Quentin Fong, is well known in the U.S., and whose son, Lak-Chung-Mau, teaches the art in Canada.

I also trained a little with Cheuk Tse, school in Hawaii.

. White crane footwork, like that of Hop-Gar, is based on moves developed for the mui-fa-jeong (plum-flower stumps), a series of tree-stumps driven into the ground atop which students practiced kung-fu.

This philosophy of white crane,identical to that of Hop-Gar, is based on four words:
chon (to destroy), sim (to evade), chun (to penetrate), and jeet (to intercept).

http://www.worldblackbelt.com/informati ... hite-crane

In Mikes gym, as I remember we practiced the mui-fa-jeong, on home made post made from cement post low to the ground....
later in other places I would use cinder blocks....or bricks.

@Mike,

can you speak a little about the foot work used, and its relationship to the style,,,

[Mpstaples]

Thanks, Mike. The "needle in cotton" movements and dimension seems to be differ from the other fists of White Crane. I heard it was developed by the founder, Ng Siu Chung to focus on cultivating internal strength. For sure power from burning palm can be applied into it.

Well say "Skillful means". I have trained for years and is still trying to formulate a path to help getting a more direct access to gain internal strength. Still experiencing it but seems little results. I started to teach my kid when she was 3 years old by telling her nothing other than played with her to hit me hard. After each hit, I would told her how to adjust the movement to make me hurt more. Once, I poked her belly, and she felt the hit stay inside the body for a while. She started to mimic to get the power go deeper and deeper. She gets it from years of punching me. But, can't do it with others. I can't survive.

Yes, I remember pictures of Ng siu chung doing that. Also, I believe there was a knife set (Tao) that was called Cotton Needle. I was never taugh that set. It eventually played into my leaving White Crane for Hop Gar.

Very nice story about your 3 year old

[Mpstaples]

Interesting Ken,
would you have a link to your article.

Ng-Siu-Chung taught three prominent students who became key figures in the migration of white crane kung-fu to the U.S.: CheukTiang-Tse, in Hawaii; Chan-Hoc-Fu, whose student, George Long, was the first person to open his kwoon (Chinese school) to non Orientals in San Francisco; and Lak-Chi-Fu, whose student, Quentin Fong, is well known in the U.S., and whose son, Lak-Chung-Mau, teaches the art in Canada.

I also trained a little with Cheuk Tse, school in Hawaii.

. White crane footwork, like that of Hop-Gar, is based on moves developed for the mui-fa-jeong (plum-flower stumps), a series of tree-stumps driven into the ground atop which students practiced kung-fu.

This philosophy of white crane,identical to that of Hop-Gar, is based on four words:
chon (to destroy), sim (to evade), chun (to penetrate), and jeet (to intercept).

http://www.worldblackbelt.com/informati ... hite-crane

In Mikes gym, as I remember we practiced the mui-fa-jeong, on home made post made from cement post low to the ground....
later in other places I would use cinder blocks....or bricks.

@Mike,

can you speak a little about the foot work used, and its relationship to the style,,,

>>> Actually, I can go on for quite a while about the footwork...maybe until you get sick of hearing about it. So why don't I limit it to the basics:

You guys all know that one way to classify gongfu styles is by the linear vs. the circular. It's a contrast between a line and a circle. Linear styles tend to move directly toward or directly back away from one's opponent. Of course there are small variations of this theme, slight movements angling off to the side. But this is only to further the drive forward. The footwork involved here is generally simple -- e.g., side-stepping in and back, or whatever. With circular styles, the footwork can be more elaborate, opening angles of many variations. You can see this with, for instance, Baqua. As the Baqua practitioner travels around his or her circle, watch the footwork used to vary the travel.

With White Crane, it is the footwork that makes everything work. But it is the horse that makes the footwork work. So without the horse, the footwork will break down. And the horse is something that is very difficult to just look at and do. You need a teacher to tell you, for instance, that the root of the horse travels down through the heel, not the toe. So that when you see someone lift their heel, it means their horse is broken. The problem with this is two fold. First, it means the footwork pattern avilalbe to the horse is now no longer available in the same way. Second, it means the arm and hand techniques available to the rooted horse are no longer available. So, for instance, there are "Gorilla" techniques (probably not the best name for them...but oh well) that require a stable horse, and there are "Crane" techniques that require a fluid horse. Each have different approaches to the hand/arm positions, and each have their own way of expressing the footwork patterns through their respective horses. So again, it is the footwork that makes the long-arm work. Without it, the style becomes just what linear stylists usually see in White Crane -- a slow, out-of-wack, horribly open and vulnerable set of movements that don't make sense. But in order to make use of the footwork patterns, you MUST have a solid horse. Without that, you can't move properly... and ALL of your other techniques will be in weak.

And yet, there aren't that many footwork patterns in White Crane (as we learned it), and more than there are hand/arm/kicking techniques. You may have heard that gongfu styles can also be divided into "closed" and "open" systems, as well as "narrow" and "wide" systems.

A "narrow" system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specifc techniques to counter them. With "narrow" systems, you have A LOT of techniques -- like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance. A "wide" system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches... but many "changes" associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with it's emphasis on changes.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring... a lot of sparing... so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns.

it's the same way with the footwork.

In my book (love to keep bringing this up), I talk about how I was wedged into a corner during a particularly difficult sparing match, and just before I was about to bite the dust, some part of me found my horse, and as soon as I did, I just kind of unconsciously also found the correct footwork pattern that completely removed me from the corner, like magic. The two went together -- footwork pattern & horse. Had I never dropped down into that horse, the footwork would never have become available.

So again, the footwork is tied to the horse, and so are all of the long-arm techniques. without the footwork and the horse, the long-arm techniques won't make sense, and won't work properly. But unlike some styles that practice one way, and spar or fight another way, the White Crane techniques are meant to be used as practiced... precisely as practiced.

[windwalker]

the White Crane techniques are meant to be used as practiced... precisely as practiced.

exactly


http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

Interesting to note: the wide and narrow systems and way of practice.

Was the plum flower post training related to the plum flower fist "Meihua Quan" , having and using the same type of post
in their training syllabus .

[wayne hansen]

One of my teachers taught the lama blocks (large wooden blocks like kettle bells ) using the six strength kune
He also taught the burning palm slapping pads and the white crane noi gung
He did not teach the needle in cotton set
The reason he did not teach it was because he had become an indoor student of Chen tin hung and learnt his square ,circular and circular continuous Wu style forms along with the 24 noi gung.
He felt they were superior to the needle in cotton set.
He told me the needle in cotton set was to teach you how to apply small circles for real fighting range.
My girlfriend at the time went to Hak fu chans pak hok school where the teacher who took over from chan was teaching the set to a lot of tai chi people
Most of those people were also learning Lohan chi gung at the choy Li fut school at the same time
One of those was tony ward who now teaches Huangs tai chi ,it would be good to get his perspective on the whole thing.

[suckinlhbf]

He felt they were superior to the needle in cotton set

Can't agree with him. Read the "Lion Roar" book of Ng Siu Chung, we can see how deep his skill is.

[Mpstaples]

I specially like your quote at the bottom, Wayne:

"Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form"

Very nice.

[dspyrido]

Many ask about the feats of old, such as burning hand, and iron palm as to why it never seem to make it into the MMA,UFC ect...

Truly an excellent question which can't be answered with memory recollections of the past. It has to be answered with why it does not appear today especially since we have such excellent video coverage where we don't have to rely on potentially flawed memory (I say flawed beacuse all memory has the elasticty problem to change over time).

I would even go another simpler step. Dont put it in the ring as it might be inappropriate for the method. Get several well trained mma stars and demonstrate the method on them. Even if it's a static demo but presents as mentioned in this thread there would 1000s of students signing up the next day including the top mma guys looking for any edge they might get in the ring.

[windwalker]

Many ask about the feats of old, such as burning hand, and iron palm as to why it never seem to make it into the MMA,UFC ect...

Truly an excellent question which can't be answered with memory recollections of the past. It has to be answered with why it does not appear today especially since we have such excellent video coverage where we don't have to rely on potentially flawed memory (I say flawed beacuse all memory has the elasticty problem to change over time).

I would even go another simpler step. Dont put it in the ring as it might be inappropriate for the method. Get several well trained mma stars and demonstrate the method on them. Even if it's a static demo but presents as mentioned in this thread there would 1000s of students signing up the next day including the top mma guys looking for any edge they might get in the ring.

Is this a memory





another memory


met teacher Al Novak, long ago.

It was said he could break any brick in a stack of 3..

Understandably, Great Grandmaster Al Novak is the only individual that Bruce Lee would not spar with publicly. Because of his enormous power and lightning quick hand speed, anyone that crossed hands with Al in sparring was destined to get steamrolled before they could react or even block his awesome punching barrages.

It was he and his Sifu, James Lee, that developed the shortest distance principle for executing highly focused punches at the closest possible ranges. This, they could do with board and brick breaking techniques at a mere distance of only two or three inches. It took considerable “compressed” force to accomplish a feat of this nature.

https://www.usadojo.com/al-novak/

It was James Lee’s MODERN KUNG-FU KARATE, Iron, Poison Hand training. It was James and Al’s study of this phenomena that inspired Bruce Lee to develop his techniques for short-distance penetration punching. He was also one of the first Americans to explore and master the art of “Iron Palm” training.

[wayne hansen]

He felt they were superior to the needle in cotton set

Can't agree with him. Read the "Lion Roar" book of Ng Siu Chung, we can see how deep his skill is.

I am only quoting someone who trained both systems
Have you learnt the noi gung of both systems

[wayne hansen]

I specially like your quote at the bottom, Wayne:

"Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form"

Very nice.

That is one of the main tenants of our system

[dspyrido]

Is this a memory





another memory


met teacher Al Novak, long ago.

It was said he could break any brick in a stack of 3..

Understandably, Great Grandmaster Al Novak is the only individual that Bruce Lee would not spar with publicly. Because of his enormous power and lightning quick hand speed, anyone that crossed hands with Al in sparring was destined to get steamrolled before they could react or even block his awesome punching barrages.

It was he and his Sifu, James Lee, that developed the shortest distance principle for executing highly focused punches at the closest possible ranges. This, they could do with board and brick breaking techniques at a mere distance of only two or three inches. It took considerable “compressed” force to accomplish a feat of this nature.

https://www.usadojo.com/al-novak/

It was James Lee’s MODERN KUNG-FU KARATE, Iron, Poison Hand training. It was James and Al’s study of this phenomena that inspired Bruce Lee to develop his techniques for short-distance penetration punching. He was also one of the first Americans to explore and master the art of “Iron Palm” training.

Old still photos are wonderful but can be misunderstood or doctored.

For example how do you feel about levitation skill in martial arts?



Or in monasteries?



Also a secret skill found in boxing:



Regarding the articles - as mentioned above do we need to have a recollection from decades ago? Do these skills not exist in the here and now anymore?

Also I am not saying hard breaking skills don't exist. They do and there is plenty of evidence for it. There are also great examples of conditioned iron body skills.

Beyond this and related to burning palm - I don't actually deny it. Aside from what I am reading here which kind of flows into many other cma palm training methods I am asking the question - is there a person who can demonstrate it on conditioned martial artists? I'm not super amazing but I enjoy being a guinea pig and I am sure there are others.

Again - do these skills not exist in the here and now anymore?

Note I am asking this question because it may be possible they have been lost or are too deeply hidden to ever see them again. It happens.

[suckinlhbf]

I am only quoting someone who trained both systems
Have you learnt the noi gung of both systems

I came across and learnt several styles including white crane and wu taichi, and I still learn whatever I see interesting. Don't know the systems but has my own personal understanding. I think x is superior to y is based on a subjective personal preference.

taught the lama blocks (large wooden blocks like kettle bells ) using the six strength kune
He also taught the burning palm slapping pads and the white crane noi gung
He did not teach the needle in cotton set
The reason he did not teach it was because he had become an indoor student of Chen tin hung and learnt his square ,circular and circular continuous Wu style forms along with the 24 noi gung.

Not too many masters who taught fit into the biography. I know one, and had talked to him quite a lot especially in his last few years. He won't be the one saying that. It is somebody else, again based on my own guess. Not fair to put a dent on somebody unless absolutely sure.