IMA and longevity

[shawnsegler]

Moving water doesn't stagnate, moving hinges don't rust.

S

[river rider]

wrong movement wears things out

[qiphlow]

Moving water doesn't stagnate, moving hinges don't rust.

S

from a strictly western medicine perspective (and based on my observations of patients that have come through my clinic): bones will demineralize from disuse, joints will stiffen, muscle will atrophy. in other words: move it or lose it.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Popular wisdom has it that Taijiquan "makes you live the longest".
However, I heard from several people that Xing Yi and Bagua are (much) better in this regard and that TJQ practicioners actually die pretty young in comparision.

Is this true? And if - I wonder why it is that way? Too much Fa Jin? Bad Habits? Only people that are ill to begin with do TJQ? The style itself is flawed?

Maybe BTDT, but I'm kinda interested in this without causing shitstorms.

The truth is that no one can say what will make your life long or short.

But, it can be stated that good diet and exercise will give you a better quality of life into your autumn years.

Ultimately, there is always a possibility that a rock from space will samsh into you and kill you instantly and all your good living will be for naught.

Trying to resist one's own demise is a fools game, but looking for a satisfying existence is definitely a worthwhile endeavour.

so, it's about intention and purpose more than anything else.

[johnwang]

Moving water doesn't stagnate, moving hinges don't rust.

S

from a strictly western medicine perspective (and based on my observations of patients that have come through my clinic): bones will demineralize from disuse, joints will stiffen, muscle will atrophy. in other words: move it or lose it.

Agree! Chinese saying said, "Move a tree, that tree may die, move a person, that person may live longer." This is why I believe moving around like Bagua guys is better than standing still like Yi Chuan guys.

[kenneth delves]

It gives an older person a reason to exercise while retaining some face, in China it is part of the culture so it is not an anomaly or something 'weird'. The forms , if done correctly keep a strong blood flow to every part of the body, exercise every muscle and keep up deep breathing which improves oxygen level in the blood. Wherever there is a high percentage of centenarians there is a culture of physical work at all ages

[Craig]

I think quality of life is also very important as DR&R mentioned. IME, even if skilled IMA players dont have an outrageously long lifespan, they are still very healthy and active right up until the day they die.

[gretel]

IME, even if skilled IMA players dont have an outrageously long lifespan, they are still very healthy and active right up until the day they die.

i'm betting my (quality of) life on it! so far, so good.

gretel

[C.J.Wang]

The practice of IMA is just one aspect of achieving longevity. There are many other factors involved such as genetics, diet, living envrionment and habits, etc.

In other words, if you practice IMA but smoke and drink all day, and never eat right, don't expect to be able to live long.

IMA masters aren't supermen either. They still suffer from illnesses like us mortals. For example, both Wang Shu-Jin and Zhang Zhun-Feng were overweight and suffering from diabetes.

[Bob]

When I first thought about this topic I remember thinking about Yang Cheng Fu and how early he had died and wondering so what does taijiquan actually add to your life. I remember reading about how long the bagua masters seemed to live. Then I read Cartmell's book on Xing Yi and was astonished how long they lived. Yang's taijiquan seemed like a loosing proposition as far as longevity goes.

Then I read Ted's article below. His teacher is both an Eastern and Western doctor and also a lineage holder in the Yang Cheng Fu line. I think it is fair to say they we have never seen a representative sample of serious Yang Taijiquan, Chen taijiquan, bagua and xing yi players with regard to longevity and their respective art. [Nice dissertation topic for someone in public heath. LOL]. Ted's article is well worth pondering if one is about to conclude that Yang taijiquan is associated with poor longevity.

Taijiquan and Longevity

By Mei Ying Sheng, MD, Shenzhen, China

Translated & Edited by Ted W. Knecht, Cleveland, Ohio

The third generation inheritor of the Yang family Taijiquan style, Yang Chengfu, passed away at the age of 53 in 1936. Over the years, this has brought about doubts as to whether Taijiquan can aid in the extension of one's life expectancy. Consequently, the author, after numerous years of meeting and studying with many of the top Taijiquan masters in China, has compiled information with regards to the ability for Taijiquan to promote longevity. The following is based on his observations with these Taijiquan masters.

According to a report from the International Sanitation Organization, the length of human life is based on life style, living environment, material goods, genetic makeup, medical background, atmospheric influences, and various other elements. Among these various elements, "life style" influences the length of one's life expectancy a total of 65%. The practice of Taijiquan is only one component of the complete composition of one's life style. The author has researched the medical and healing capabilities of Taijiquan from over 40 years of medical practice and the instruction of Authentic Yang style Taijiquan. From the following examples the author will provide evidence for the ability of Taijiquan to aid in the promotion of longevity.

The author has had the great privilege to have studied under some of Yang Chengfu's top disciples such as: Master Zhao Bin, who over the age of 90 years, still teaches in the city of Xian. Master Zhao was able to get up in front of more than 50 thousand people to perform Yang style Taiji straightsword at the Second International Yongnian Taijiquan Friendship Conference in 1993. In the author's hometown of Leshan located in Sichuan Province, Master Yang Zhao Xi still openly teaches to the public even though he is 90 years old. Recently the author had the opportunity to travel to Hong Kong to present several Taijiquan workshops. While in Hong Kong the author was unfortunate to have missed the chance to visit with 94 year old Master Ceng Zhao Ran. However, based on a conversation with his disciple, Liao Jian Kai, Master Ceng is still in very good health. Master Fu Zhongwen, who was able to travel and conduct workshops across the United States prior to his passing away at the age of 91, was a prime example for the health benefits that can be received from the continued practice of Taijiquan.

The author has also had the opportunity to meet other famous Taijiquan masters over the age of 80 from other styles such as: Master Wu Ying Hua (president of the Wu style Taijiquan Association) and 94 year old Master Ma Yue Liang (Wu Ying Hua's husband) are the third generation inheritors of the Wu Jian Quan style of Taijiquan. Both have been promoting authentic Wu style Taijiquan for years and are still actively teaching the art in Shanghai. Another example is 92 year old Master Pu Gong Da (president of the Hao style Taijiquan Association) who still practices medicine everyday and teaches Taijiquan part-time. Master Sun Jian Yun, who is over 80 years old, is the president of the Sun style Taijiquan Association. Her father, Master Sun Lu Tang, was the founder of the Sun style Taijiquan. Master Gu Liu Xin, famous for his Chen style Taijiquan, passed away in his 80's. In 1987 the author was able to have studied under the tutelage of the famous Qigong and Taijiquan instructor, Master Ma Li Tang, in Beijing. At the age of 86 he often taught for more than ten hours a day without tiring. He passed away at the age of 88 years old. Many people say that he worked himself to the grave. In 1987 the author participated in the First National Chinese Martial Arts Research and Discussion Conference held in Beijing. While attending the conference, he was able to meet with Master Wu Tunan who was 103 years old at that time. At 103, Master Wu was still very energetic with gleaming eyes and a quick step. Master Wu passed away at the age of 105.

Other very famous disciples of Yang Chengfu who lived into their 80's include Master Li Ya Qian (aka Li Chun Nian) who passed away at the age of 83 in Chengdu, Sichuan Province; Master Wang Yong Quan who passed away at 80 years old in Beijing; and Master Zheng Man Qing who passed away at the age of 80 years old.

Even though the lives of the Taijquan masters described above have had a very hard life, seven of them have lived into their nineties and eight have lived into their eighties. This is much higher than most average Chinese citizen.

There have been many legends (rumors) with regards to the death of late grandmaster Yang Chengfu who passed away at the age of 53 in 1936. Because the author has a great interest in the health benefits of Taijiquan and a medical background, he has questioned the death of Yang Chengfu for many years. While being taught by late Master Fu Zhongwen in Shanghai in 1983, the author asked Master Fu about Yang Chengfu's death. Master Fu stated, "After my teacher (Yang Chengfu) arrived in southern China, he was afflicted with diarrhea and vomiting due to the sanitation of the water and environment. He was hooked up to an I.V. for not very long before he passed away". The capabilities and technology of western medicine was very poor in the 1930's throughout China, therefore the treatment of illness (however so minor) was a tremendous problem in many areas in China.

Note: Due to having no documentation as to the exact age of some of the masters described above, he noted some of the age as in the "80's" without an exact number. Any additional information would be welcomed by the author.

http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/longevity.html

[Interloper]

I don't think it's which IMA you train, but how you train for life. Excess stress, straining, too much effort, too much impact -- all can have the result of causing damage that your body, as it ages, has a harder time repairing and compensating for.

Low impact, load-bearing aerobic (and some anaerobic) exercise via taiji or the core bodywork of any internal system, seems to me to be a great way to keep your entire system - from cardiovascular and pulmonary to neural and musculo-skeletal - in good shape.

But we have to train correctly, not recklessly. And not too much. Too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing.

And, I've seen some guys practice internal exercises too "hard," meaning that they are forcing their bodies to "do things." Kind of like straining on the toilet instead of using relaxation methods to let nature "take its course." You can really strain a gut muscle that way, and maybe force your circulation unnaturally. Conversely, internal forcing could activate the vagus nerve and cause a precipitous drop in blood pressure, leading to fainting and even death. That's how Elvis apparently died. At the minimum, you end up with a nasty batch of hemorrhoids.

Longevity is affected by a bunch of factors, including genes, diet, environment, lifestyle, all that stuff. But living a life of moderation in all things - including moderate exercise, whether through IMA body practices, or a variety of activities from walking and doing yardwork to a fitness regimen like Jack LaLanne's (see the thread in Off the Topic -- at age 94 he puts all of us to shame) - seems to be the one main way that we can increase our odds of living long.

Living well is another subject.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

well, here's a clue....

Moy Lin Shin, the founder of teh Taoist Tai Chi society in Canada died at 67 years of age.

the places are still open and many people go there to learn.

I myself see some similarities in shape, but I am not sure where this tai chi comes from. It doesn't fit in with the big families so much but it crosses over them.

anyone involved with these people and know what the foundation of the tai chi is? Did Moy create this himself?

[Peacedog]

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[klonk]

I think learning to relax into what you are doing is nine tenths of the benefit. If the body relaxes, the mind tends to follow, and I think it is agreed East and West than mental stress can wreck your body.

Knowing how to "roll with the punches" is a prized quality in the West. The terminology is that of boxing, but we apply it to dealing with problems of all sorts, so the tactic has become a metaphor. "Don't get uptight over things." That is Western slang, but it could as easily be Eastern.

[C.J.Wang]

White crane guys tend to die around 60 if they don't stop practicing white crane and do something else. I suspect the culprit here is all of the compression breathing they do.

Peacedog

I wonder where you got that information because most of the Fukien White Crane teachers that I know of in Taiwan are quite healthy and live to ripe old age. White Crane is considered by many Taiwanese MAists as an internal system as well. My own teacher is 90 this year and practices compression breathing daily. His belly is as hard as rock and can still take punches.