Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:07 pm

Ah, 切脖摔 is like Osoto Gari, but with your arm around their neck (or gripping their throat).. The Brush Knee in that video, I never learned.

Is Diagonally Fly 斜行 in Chinese? If it is, I know it, but 行, to my knowledge doesn't mean fly.. That one and 野马分鬃 (Parting the Wild Horse's Mane) are similar in that your thigh comes up behind theirs.

EDIT: Yes, Diagonal Fly is the one, but where the fuck did the Fly come from?? 行 means going or walking.

I think I figured out what Brush Knee is but it's a Yang move, so I never learned it.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:16 pm

It might be this:
斜飞式

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_ ... f_Postures)

so literally slant fly (what is the 3rd character)?
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:19 pm

marvin8 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:To you making fun of me using the term master, you are quite ignorant of the meaning. When I became a disciple of my master he took me in as a son. I ate there, he taught me how to cook when I got divorced, spent festivals there, has been teaching me everything he knows (including how to play Chinese chess and calligraphy),was a great friend to me in tough times, introduced me to all kinds of other masters to learn from - all for free. He's not just a teacher to me. You can make fun of it, but he's old school and this is the culture. I owe him a great debt of gratitude.

Not to mention the fact that he is a badarse motherfucker.. :P

Sorry, had a couple of drinks and being an arse. :-[ No disrespect to you or your teacher is intended. Although, I may disagree with some of your views on what MMA doesn't do, etc.

Here is what some people refer to as diagonal fly. But, Lyoto Machida doesn't call it tai chi. Different styles are going to have similar techniques:
Image


No worries. Thanks, that video cleared it up. Nice throw. Almost made it look unintentional.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think that I don't think MMA does? I have a lot of respect for the art/sport. Just not a fan of how [I think that] BJJ is overemphasised and don't personally like to compete.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:23 pm

everything wrote:It might be this:
斜飞式

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_ ... f_Postures)

so literally slant fly (what is the 3rd character)?

Okay, so it must just be semantics. 式 in this case means posture.
The list also confirmed the Chinese for Brush Knee. I've seen that as a strike, though. It's definitely a good candidate to learn from my master. :)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:27 pm

BruceP wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
I liked the article. The author makes a good point. I didn't mind clicking the "bait" at all. What's wrong with generating some traffic for a fellow martial artist??? It's just a fucking click and doesn't cost me anything. With the extra money they may be able to purchase better equipment for students or be happier in life (thus teaching better). It's a win-win situation..



Well, it aint like any click-bait Graham posts is going to be telling me something I didn't already know.

His blogheaded applying tai chi classics in mma , or whatever it was, is stuff I've talked about since the days of EF. The first thread I started on EF was titled; "Do The Principles Work For You?" - asking if the tai chi principles were directly applied to peoples' sparring in general, and MMA style sparring, and if so, how? Graham and some other published IMA author dude mocked and laughed at the notion with Graham telling me that one day, I'd figure it out. In that thread, he cut and pasted some article written by his teacher - some guy named Rand - in giving me his, Graham's, "take on it". I knew right there that both he and the other author guy were full of shit and had no practical understanding of what I was asking about.

Most of the click-baiting blog topics I've seen posted here are topics on stuff I've been writing about on this forum since I joined.

Sorry, didn't know that you two had a history. Ja, it sucks when people that don't even know you or your abilities talk down to you..
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:31 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Ah, 切脖摔 is like Osoto Gari, but with your arm around their neck (or gripping their throat)..

Yoshihiro Akiyama doing Osoto Gari.

Excerpt from UFC 144 Judo Chop: Yoshihiro Akiyama Hits Some Sexy Judo Throws On Jake Shields, https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/6/28 ... ke-shields:

Image

In the first round, Akiyama went on the attack during a still moment. He rushed in and gets Jake to throw a jab, while lifting his lead leg for whatever reasons. Unfortunately this plays perfectly into Akiyama's plan. The left hand sneaks past the chest to the far-side armpit, while the left leg chops out the lifted lead foot of Shields. The chop and the pull of the arm that's on the far-side armpit allow Akiyama to pivot Shields over his upper thigh and slam him down to the mat. During the resulting scramble, Akiyama gets another foot sweep, but Shields remains too strong and quick to hold down for long.

An alternate angle:

Image
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:42 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
everything wrote:It might be this:
斜飞式

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_ ... f_Postures)

so literally slant fly (what is the 3rd character)?

Okay, so it must just be semantics. 式 in this case means posture.
The list also confirmed the Chinese for Brush Knee. I've seen that as a strike, though. It's definitely a good candidate to learn from my master. :)


Most people seem to like this sort of ambiguous/multi-app interpretation. Once I learned/saw it as a throw, I couldn't really "un-see it" as a throw. As a "textbook" no pressure form, the pulldown is all that's really needed. Tai chi is push/pull/split/bump, etc., which are "energies" that when you combine them make a lot of sense as throws even if they make sense as strikes. I know less about striking, though.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:43 pm

middleway wrote:I
I call them the 3 pillars of throwing or taking down.

1) Manipulate the structure
2) Lead off balance.
3) Remove points of support.

These three concepts, individually or in any number of combinations be that simultanious or as a cascade, produce all throws or take downs.


really helpful idea, thanks a lot.
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/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:44 pm

Ah yes, whether the arm is around the chest or neck doesn't matter that much.. A well-executed throw.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:46 pm

everything wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
everything wrote:It might be this:
斜飞式

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_ ... f_Postures)

so literally slant fly (what is the 3rd character)?

Okay, so it must just be semantics. 式 in this case means posture.
The list also confirmed the Chinese for Brush Knee. I've seen that as a strike, though. It's definitely a good candidate to learn from my master. :)


Most people seem to like this sort of ambiguous/multi-app interpretation. Once I learned/saw it as a throw, I couldn't really "un-see it" as a throw. As a "textbook" no pressure form, the pulldown is all that's really needed. Tai chi is push/pull/split/bump, etc., which are "energies" that when you combine them make a lot of sense as throws even if they make sense as strikes. I know less about striking, though.


Well, I don't care much for the strike, so it may yet make my list as a throw! :)
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:51 pm

same here. dang it. really want to go learn some stuff now. I'll just rely on RSF. try to post your thoughts after trying these out!
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:41 pm

BruceP wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
I liked the article. The author makes a good point. I didn't mind clicking the "bait" at all. What's wrong with generating some traffic for a fellow martial artist??? It's just a fucking click and doesn't cost me anything. With the extra money they may be able to purchase better equipment for students or be happier in life (thus teaching better). It's a win-win situation..



Well, it aint like any click-bait Graham posts is going to be telling me something I didn't already know.

His blogheaded applying tai chi classics in mma , or whatever it was, is stuff I've talked about since the days of EF. The first thread I started on EF was titled; "Do The Principles Work For You?" - asking if the tai chi principles were directly applied to peoples' sparring in general, and MMA style sparring, and if so, how? Graham and some other published IMA author dude mocked and laughed at the notion with Graham telling me that one day, I'd figure it out. In that thread, he cut and pasted some article written by his teacher - some guy named Rand - in giving me his, Graham's, "take on it". I knew right there that both he and the other author guy were full of shit and had no practical understanding of what I was asking about.

Most of the click-baiting blog topics I've seen posted here are topics on stuff I've been writing about on this forum since I joined.


Just to clarify a few things:

1. Nobody is making money from you clicking a link to Scott's blog. What is this "bait" you keep talking about?

2. Most people who write about martial arts on the Internet do it for free. I write my blog for free. It doesn't make any money. I do it because I want to. There are no ads on there making me money (Wordpress occasionally throws an ad up because thats the price you pay for getting free hosting, but I if somebody click it then none of that comes my way).

3. Occasionally I'll link to something I've been paid to write for another outlet, or to somebody else's blog that I like - so what?

4. You are still going on about me not showing you enough respect when you first joined EF (what - 10 years ago??) If you can't engage in a rational conversation without blowing up and calling everybody who doesn't agree with you "full of shit" then there will be no room for constructive conversation.

5. Most importantly, this all has nothing to do with Maartin's thread - how about we just stick to that instead. Like you said, I like the idea of stepping on people's feet. I was actually agreeing with you. I just didn't realise I was stepping on yours.
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby RobP3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Not Tai Chi, but we've been working on throws recently and enjoy this one :)

That's pretty cool (all throws are), but too technical for my needs.

I like things like 切脖摔, which is like a clothes-liner but you place your foot behind theirs, 勾脚摔, which is hooking their foot with mine and then pulling it out from under them and 抱腿摔, which can be used when catching a kick or as a fairly standard single-leg take-down. These throws can be used by pretty much anyone and don't require much power or technical ability, just be in the right position at the right time. :)


Yep, but what we do is extract the principle from the technique. In any case, It thnk its harder to find better throws than in Sombo. The good thing also is you can see those throws being used in actual competition rather than just in a demo. Any decent throw shouldn't need power, it's all in the position and timing
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby RobP3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:15 am

Steve James wrote:Well, how do people practice tcc throws without studying tcc falling and getting up? Are there "tcc" methods for those aspects?


Not that I have seen, at least in Yang style. You just had to kind of "get on with it"
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Re: Your Favourite Taiji Throws?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:21 am

RobP3 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Not Tai Chi, but we've been working on throws recently and enjoy this one :)

That's pretty cool (all throws are), but too technical for my needs.

I like things like 切脖摔, which is like a clothes-liner but you place your foot behind theirs, 勾脚摔, which is hooking their foot with mine and then pulling it out from under them and 抱腿摔, which can be used when catching a kick or as a fairly standard single-leg take-down. These throws can be used by pretty much anyone and don't require much power or technical ability, just be in the right position at the right time. :)


Yep, but what we do is extract the principle from the technique. In any case, It thnk its harder to find better throws than in Sombo. The good thing also is you can see those throws being used in actual competition rather than just in a demo. Any decent throw shouldn't need power, it's all in the position and timing


How are you dealing with the jacket collar/sleeve grips translating this to Systema, Rob?

That's a kind of "flamboyant - high risk, high reward" BJJ attack, particularly in competition, but we usually find the hip (iliac crest) with the foot. I see in Sambo he's going for the thigh - that's quite different. It would be interesting to explore the differences. I think he's saying it makes the guy lean more, but I can also see how it could make the technique less effective as you can move your thigh backwards to escape it (perhaps coupled with brushing their foot off your thigh with the left hand) better than you can move the hip backwards. When the foot is on the hip it's a lot more 'sticky'. Probably worth experimenting with both.

The other difference with the Russian approach is blocking the far leg - the Brazilian approach is usually to underhook the near leg.
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